Introduction and Guest Introduction
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 556 of the Brainy Business.
Unidentified Announcer: M. You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly.
Now, here’s your host, Melina Palmer.
The Hidden Beliefs Shaping Leadership
Melina Palmer: Hello.
Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer, and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast.
What if your biggest leadership challenge isn’t your boss, your team, or your calendar, but the story you’re telling yourself about them? It’s easy to think the barriers to our success come from other people. Slow decisions, constant demands, competing priorities. But what if the real blockers are the hidden beliefs shaping how you show up? Things like, I need to be involved. I can’t make a mistake, or I can’t say no. Who hasn’t thought at least one of those, right? Muriel Wilkins is an executive coach, founder and CEO of Paravis Partners, host of Harvard Business Review’s Coaching Real Leaders podcast, and the author of the new book Leadership Unblocked. Through her work with hundreds of senior leaders, she’s uncovered seven core beliefs that quietly hold people back. And she offers a practical roadmap for breaking through each of them. Her work is all about shifting from frustration and blame to awareness and agency. Learning to look inward before pointing outward. As you listen, consider where might you be feeling stuck? Not because of someone else’s actions, but because of your own assumptions about them.
Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It’s all within the app you’re listening to and at, thebrainybusiness.com556.
Now let’s jump right in.
Muriel Wilkins’ Background and Coaching Mission
Melina Palmer: Muriel Wilkins, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
Muriel Wilkins: Thank you, Melina. I’m delighted to be here.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, I am so excited to talk about you.
I really love the book and the way you’re breaking down these blockers for people. Before we, you know, dig in on that, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
Muriel Wilkins: Absolutely. So I am the CEO and founder of a firm called Paravis Partners and also the host of Coaching Real Leaders. All of that. What that means is I’m an executive coach. I’ve been an executive coach for over 20 years, I work primarily with C suite level leaders and my mission really is to help them lead with a little more ease because I think if they could lead with more ease, then it would make life in the workplace a lot more easier for everyone else.
Melina Palmer: M. Preach. Right. Like, I hear that. I’m all about that.
I really love, you know, and we, if we look into digging into your background, you share, you know, some really enlightening a story from, ah, your past and career in this, that kind of leads into the book, but I’m sure is also foundational in the work that you do.
Now can you share a bit about kind of how you got here?
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah, I mean, Melina, I’m still getting there. I don’t even know where there, there is.
But, so I, before becoming an executive coach, and quite frankly, if you had ever told me, you know, 30 something years ago when I was sitting in business school that this is what I’d be doing, I would have told you you were not right in the head. I had very different aspirations to really be in the C suite. And I actually got to the C suite quite early on in my career, and struggled, right. But didn’t struggle with getting the business results, was struggling more with just how challenging it felt to be able to work through others and to be able to influence a lot of the typical challenges that leaders have. And during that time I really was focused on trying to make sure that everyone else was doing what they needed to do or that the business was doing what it needed to do in order for me to feel more comfortable and less challenged. And it wasn’t until, you know, I would go home every night and complain to my partner about how horrible everybody else was being or how people didn’t want to listen to me and, you know, all the rants around how challenging it was. And one night he said to me, you know, did you ever think maybe the problem is you and not them? And I’ll be honest with you, I was like, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Right. but I continued to feel challenged and in a way that I had never felt before. and it led me to eventually leaving that organization. But that voice of him saying that never kind of really went away and sparked this level of curiosity around when we face leadership challenges, what is truly in our control? Do we have anything in our control? And eventually led me to a profession in executive coaching. And what I have found is that we have way more in our control than we give ourselves credit for in terms of how we contribute to how we experience leadership. And the biggest piece that’s in there is really your mindset, which is what my book is all about.
Melina Palmer: I laugh, of course, because I think anybody. We’ve all struggled with the scenarios.
We’re saying, like, it’s like, these people are difficult. This is so hard. Whatever. In various aspects, it happens, right? And, not everyone has had someone who’s willing to say, like, hey, there’s a. There is a common denominator here. Just saying.
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I’ll be honest with you, I don’t even think we were.
Well, I think we were engaged at that point, and I still ended up marrying the guy. but, you know, sometimes you need that. That. That external. Not everyone has that, but sometimes you do need that external person or individual or thing to read. something that gives you that. That little PO push. My hope is that you get to a point where you have. And that’s where I feel I am personally. Right. If I compare myself now to 25 years ago when this happened, that voice is internal. it has evolved to become internal. And that’s my hope that a lot of leaders, and quite frankly, whether you’re a leader or aspiring leader or even an individual contributor, that you can be present enough to hear yourself say, hey, like, what part of this do you own and what can you do about it? Because I actually think that’s where real.
Melina Palmer: Agency comes from, definitely.
- And I think that’s, you know, you’ve, like, leaned in and are able to be that for people in that executive coach space. Right. And then I had, an executive coach years ago when I was working on the corporate side of things. And I will never forget that there was a. You know, he was saying something, or I was recounting about what somebody said, and I was like. And I said, I’m not edgy. And he says, back to me goes, I’m not edgy. I’m like, all right, fine.
Muriel Wilkins: Right, right, right, right.
I mean, you know, it’s interesting because I really see my goal as a. As a coach, quite frankly, is to work myself out of a job. Right? Like, I always know because I am there to just be that external voice, but it’s a. It’s a voice that you actually already have on the inside. I’m just there to sort of amplify it a little bit until you start recognizing it for yourself. And so I always know when an engagement is over because a client will ask me a question or will be like, what should I do? Or here’s the situation. And before I can even open my mouth, they’re like, well, I know what you’re going to ask me. And I’m like, we’re good. My job is done. Go coach yourself. so, you know, a lot of. A lot of what I’m kind of on a mission to do is for folks to recognize. Yes, absolutely. Executive coaches are great. I’m one of them, and they can be very helpful. But ultimately, I, think true growth is getting to a place where, for the most part, you can coach yourself.
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
The Difference Between Facts and Beliefs
Melina Palmer: Before we get into the hidden blockers, the seven that you have in the book I really do love, you have a, piece where you’re talking about facts, beliefs and barriers and, like, differences between them.
And as you’re talking about mindset, can you share a little bit about that for everyone as we, kind of transition?
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah. I mean, this is the thing that really, I. And I’ll be honest, I resisted as a notion, for.
For a long time. But, you know, you know, when you hear that, you read different things. Like, I’m a big believer in triangulation. Like, if I hear something, I might not, like, really stick. It doesn’t stick. But then if I keep hearing it from different places, credit credible places, that are even unassociated, then I’m like, oh, there must be something there. And the something there for me was this whole notion around thoughts, right? The thoughts we have, the beliefs we have and how attached we are and what. And what are they. And recognizing that our beliefs are really like stories, you know, they’re the narration to the movie or they’re the. The. The closed captioning, right? The. The little thing, the words that run the bottom to what we are actually experiencing. And so, when I talk about the difference between facts and beliefs, facts are the reality, right? It’s. It’s what’s happening in front of us. You and I are having a conversation that is a fact. Okay? Now if what overlies. That is. Oh, my gosh, I’m so excited about this conversation. It’s going so well. She’s interested, I’m interested. Or on the other side, like, oh, my gosh, Melina is bored about this conversation, or it’s not going well. I don’t feel it’s going to be a good show. It’s not going to be a great conversation. That’s the narration that I’m bringing over. The reality of what’s happening that is a belief, it’s an assumption. Right. It’s no different if you’re in a business and you have assumptions that go into a budget. We don’t actually know if those assumptions are true. You know, we’re making educated guesses about what’s going to happen and what. What ends up being, what ends up really, informing how you experience something. Is that narration? And so my whole thesis is if you want to change the way that you experience anything, you better start checking what assumptions you’re making about that particular. The fact of what’s happening. and those. And what’s very hard, though, is that those beliefs, we’re so attached to them because they’re kind of habitual and they actually serve a purpose. A lot of times, A, we may not even recognize that they’re there, and B, we might really resist separating from them because of the purpose that they served in the past. But to me, the whole good news of this is our beliefs are so malleable. They’re so. You know, I was sharing with my daughter a couple of weeks ago, we were talking, you know, I was telling her, well, it’s just a belief. And she’s like, what do you mean? I said, you know, you’re the sky, okay? And the clouds are your beliefs, right? So they’re there, but they don’t have to be there. They can pass, they can change, they can change in form, they can come back if you need them to. But you have a choice right now around how you want to experience this and what narration you’re giving the reality of what you’re facing. And so that little distinction can make a world of difference in terms of how, quite frankly, people go about anything, or actually how they experience anything that then leads to action.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, I love that. the sky in the clouds. That’s a good, ah, metaphor for it. Right.
As we think about the way they pass and change and what they do, like, I think that’s really helpful for people. you gave an example in the book, and I don’t remember the exact phrasing you use because I talk about something very similar in. When I talk about the focusing illusion that you can have. If I’m in a meeting with the boss and they look at, like, they look at me, you know, and like, oh, they’re looking at me like, oh, no, they must be thinking I’m talking too long. They, they’re wanting me to stop. They never listen to what I have to say, blah, blah, blah. Like that. The narration, that’s there. Someone else. And then you just stop, right? The other person could have the boss look at them and go, oh, good, they’re looking at me. They must want my input. They want my opinion, they trust me. Right? And so you react very differently based on that belief is, you know, using language you have there. If you focus on the right thing and change the way you want to. I talk about two kind of like flipping that confirmation bias to be a positive. So if we go in and instead of assuming they hate me, they don’t want to hear what I have to say, we can say, well, what if they. They like me and they do want to hear what I have to say? How might I interpret this thing differently?
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah.
And, look, I mean, and this is not about kind of like just change all your beliefs to be, you know, positive. And it’s not that at all because quite frankly, I’m like the most pragmatically realist, like, probably glass half empty person there is. And I, think really it’s pick your beliefs based on what the outcome is that you’re looking to drive to. Okay, so if I have a client who comes in and I’m like, well, what do you want? How do you want to show up as a leader? They’re like, I want to show up as confident. Okay, great. But if the belief you have is that I’m not worthy, I don’t belong at the table, I don’t know what I’m doing, I’m not good at my job. The math ain’t mathing, as the young people say, right? It has to add up. So the question is, well, what assumption would you need to make about yourself, about the other people, about the situation that increases the probability that you will feel confident on the other end. Right? And then from there, what actions would you take? So this whole, you know, fake it till you make it doesn’t work because the fake it till you make it focuses on the action, but it’s not sustainable because the operating system isn’t aligned with what the machine is supposed to do. Okay. and so that’s where I think, you know, to me, like, what gets me really excited is it opens up the range of possibilities, right? And that’s why this is much more about being able to, live up to potential rather than trying to, remediate from something. But when you can see, oh, I can pick and choose from a variety of assumptions and kind of play with them and then decide which one I’m going to hang my hat on for now, loosely Because I think that’s the one that’s going to get me to where I want to go, man. Like, think about all the different ways you can use that.
Melina Palmer: I love that.
The Seven Core Limiting Beliefs
Melina Palmer: And it feels like it’s such a great transition into those seven blockers, those kind of barrier statements that you have.
let’s do a quick overview of what each of them is. And then, as I mentioned to you before we started recording, I think we can dig in on one, to really show how this is all work and what people will get from the book.
Muriel Wilkins: Absolutely.
So if we can take a step back for a little bit, we all have a range of beliefs, and there are so many out there. I mean, we’d never be able to number them. Right. What I got curious about, quite frankly, because I’m a big sort of pattern recognition person, I got curious about. I wonder if there are beliefs that leaders hold that are common across them, that tend to be the more popular ones. Okay. The ones that kind of get in their way the most. So I looked across over 300 of my clients from the past 20 years, different genders, different industries, et cetera. looked at all of, you know, my, my, all the coaching I had done with them, and I had notes, et cetera. And lo and behold, you know, people weren’t that special. They shared a lot of the same beliefs. and there was a pattern around the ones that bubbled up. And so the seven that I name are not, fully comprehensive in that they’re not the only ones. However, I would say that if you are feeling challenged in the way that you lead, there is a high probability that these might be one of the beliefs that’s getting in your way. And if not, that’s fine too. There might be another one. And I give you a framework on how you can go about figuring out what that is. So the seven that I found bubbled up to the top are, number one, I need to be involved. Right? That voice that says I have to be involved, and that really impacts the level of engagement at which you operate. It ends up, really impeding your ability to lead at scale, and quite often leads to burnout or your people getting very annoyed with you because you are in place and getting involved in things that they don’t really want you to be involved in. Right. So that’s the first one. The second is I need it done now. This is the person who exhibits behaviors of, you know, what’s known as toxic productivity. So the priority is in just getting things done urgently at all costs. and again very much leads to lack of prioritization. people feeling very frustrated, overwhelmed, burned out, either themselves or others who work for them. the third is I know I’m right. the behavior that that leads to is very much showing up as, you know, the smartest person in the room. it impedes being able to build capacity in others because you are giving the answer all the time, solving the problem all the time. and quite frankly often comes off as being known as the person who might be abrasive rather than assertive. Sometimes comes off as condescending which has a ripple effect through the organization. The fourth one is I can’t make a mistake. this is the mantra of what’s known as the perfectionist. it can often lead to delayed decision making, lots of frustration again with team members, and inability to get everything on their plate done because they’re trying to perfect all that’s there. the fifth one is this one was the one that was most surprising to me. It’s If I can do it, so can you. Often people think that this is a very inspirational type of mantra. but quite frankly what it does is it gets in the way of you being able to meet others where they are, which is so critical when you’re a leader and trying to lead, change, coach people on your team. If you’re in sales or negotiation. Anything where you’re trying to do work through others, your inability to meet them where they are really kind of gets in the way of being you being able to be as impactful as you can be. The sixth one is I can’t say no. these folks literally say yes to almost everything. Take things on, people love them. People who they work for love them because they are the go to. They will get things done, they get the results, but at the cost of their own well being and their team’s well being. And it often gets in their way of advancement because they’re not paying attention to bigger career ah things. And then the last one is I don’t belong here. and the I don’t belong here belief, gets in the way of speaking up, of advocating for yourself and quite frankly just leads to even if the results work, just a lot of unease, and impact on your well being as you try to lead at a particular level within an organization.
Melina Palmer: And I’m guessing people who are listening definitely probably had at least one like you said, that they go, oh, I hope that’s the One that she talks about, but you probably have all of them.
Muriel Wilkins: I mean, as I wrote this book, I was like, oh, I know which one I’m, you know, I am.
Right? It was, My assistant was like, oh, I know which one is you. Right. And every chapter that I wrote, Melina, like, I would finish the chapter, and I would be like, oh, my God, I’m all over this chapter. Right. Like, I have. And what it taught me is we all have all these beliefs. We just exercise them more than the other. one more than the other. depending on the context or situation. Or, again, they’re so habitual that even though somebody might say, well, I always say no, I don’t say yes, it’s there somewhere. It’s just dormant because you haven’t had to use it. Right. but I know as I work through them, I’m like, I saw myself and I saw them in me, all of them, and. And now we’re just one big happy family.
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
I appreciate, too, that you, you know, brought in your own examples to show, like, it’s okay, and you will, you will show up in multiple of these. And like you said, at varying times, I always talk about these. Whether it’s like that personal mindset or something. I think about it like weeds in the garden. Right. So there’s maybe that one really huge dandelion. And every time you come home, you think, oh, my gosh, I need to pull. Pull that thing. but then you forget about it when you’re not looking at it. You see it again and again. You finally pull it, and then you realize there are three smaller ones that you didn’t even notice when you were distracted by the big one. And so you pull those, and then you look at the rest of it, and they’re everywhere.
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah. And, you know, I, I, I love that you brought that up, because.
And I’m sure in the field of work that you’re in, you’re familiar with Gabor Mate, who, does a lot of work around, psychology and, Dr. Gabor Mate. And I heard him speak the other day, and he, he used the weeds example, and he talked about. But you have to understand where those weeds come from. Right. there’s an origin to them. Right. The soil was there, and something fed the soil or didn’t feed the soil in order for weeds to grow versus beautiful flowers. Right. and so this notion of they keep growing back even is you might not have dealt with the soil, you might not have dealt with what underlies it in order to be able to then, you know, transition the garden. But. And I actually think the point of this is not that you get rid of all the weeds and they never come back again. It’s more that you notice when they’re coming back and you say, oh, what am I going to do? And let me actually befriend the weeds so that I can work in concert with them to get them out and understand how to treat the soil versus saying I’m never going to have weights because that’s unrealistic.
Melina Palmer: Right. That’s the perfectionism problem.
Muriel Wilkins: Exactly.
Melina Palmer: Very unattainable.
but it does become. So if you just like mow the grass down, like that’s not going to work. It might look okay for a bit, but the problem’s getting worse kind of under the surface there. But if you are on top of it, then it’s just like a little bit of maintenance versus, you know, days in the hot sun.
Muriel Wilkins: That’s right. And waiting. Waiting till you’re, you’re. It’s like overflowing. You’re in it.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, that definitely.
Focusing on “I Need to Be Involved”
Melina Palmer: So any that you feel like you would want to dig in, you know, keeping our metaphor going, I guess, on for these, blockers if you’re gonna, Which one?
Muriel Wilkins: Well, let me ask you, which one resonated with you? Which one did you see yourself with?
Melina Palmer: It’s definitely. I, I’ve definitely done all the things.
I do think that for a lot of people who are listening, I think the. So I know, you know, I can’t say no. Definitely comes up a lot for people. And we have had like Vanessa Patrick’s been on the show and, and different people talking about saying no. So we, we talk about that. I think that not being able to make a mistake stake, is something that definitely shows up.
Muriel Wilkins: How about for you personally?
Melina Palmer: I know, right?
Muriel Wilkins: Like I said, I think I’m putting you on the spot.
Melina Palmer: I know over time I definitely am someone that naturally I have a hard time saying no to things because I can help everyone.
Like, I see the opportunity that is there. and I think with that too, is that the need to be involved. Right. And being part of that process.
Muriel Wilkins: What do I do?
I need to be involved since it’s at the top. Top of the list. Yeah, let’s do it. Okay. Let’s go for it.
Melina Palmer: All right, so what can you tell us about that feeling people have?
And walking through the story of, knowing doesn’t have to be the exact one in the book. But like how, how does this show up? What’s kind of a common problem someone might see here? how does that show up for people?
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah.
So know, we can start with like what, how does it tend to present itself? Okay. and usually you, you know, it’s not like people just say oh my, you know, I’ve never had a coaching client come to me and the, the, you know what they start off with at the kickoff or even before I take them on as a client. Very rarely, I don’t even think ever in my 20 something years have I had a client who comes and says I really need to work on my beliefs, I really need to work on my mindset. They don’t come with that.
Melina Palmer: I’m very interested to see how that may change with the book coming.
Right.
Muriel Wilkins: I mean I’m hoping, right, like boy, what, that would be great, you know, so if anybody’s listening, you know, you can make my day.
what I find they come with is what is happening externally, right on the outside or what is happening with them. And so let me sort of point out, some of the cues that I need to be involved may give you a hint, or some of the cues that, that would exist that may give you a hint that you may have this belief of I need to be involved. And so a lot of times on the outside is people experience you as being in all the things, wanting to weigh in on everything, wanting to be at all the meetings. A telltale sign is a desire to be copied on everything. All the emails, you’re like, just copy me, just copy me, just copy me. being in all the meetings, they’re often triple booked, double booked in meetings. they, if we take it at a bigger level they run into being able to make the jump in leadership. So being able to scale their leadership. So if they go from managing a team of, of 10 or 20 to now they’re managing three divisions and they have more people that they have to manage. They have difficulty being able to do that because they are in all the things, they have difficulty being able to do what I call the higher level order leadership responsibilities. That is the important but not urgent tasks of leadership strategy, people development, all of those bigger ticket items, because they’re involved in the weeds. Okay, so these are some of the external things that are happening on the internal. They often feel like they are not fulfilling their full potential. So the example I give in the book is a is a client who is took on a role because he was able. Gonna be able to operate at a more strategic level. He was gonna be able to help influence where the business was going. But because he was so. He had this like, I need to be involved in everything. He saw it. He. He wasn’t able to do that. But very interestingly enough, he said when you ask him, why do you need to be involved? He’s like, because everybody wants me to. Okay? So they don’t necessarily say that that’s what’s driving them. They actually believe not only that the reason they have to be involved is because if they didn’t, things would fall apart or people would be disappointed, okay? Which is not necessarily true. What they don’t know is everybody’s secretly hoping that they would just not come to that meeting or not weigh in on that topic or not have to be cc’d on everything. So now what’s interesting about this is what’s the origin, right? Because it’s important that we don’t just go from, oh, that’s the belief that’s blocking me to now what do I do about it? You’ve got to understand it, right? Just like we talked about the weeds, like, why are the weeds growing? And a lot of times, this notion or this thinking belief, of I need to be involved came from a place of some experience that you’ve had in the past, or multiple experiences where being involved at that level, at that granular. Granular level was paramount for you to be successful. Right? so I think about myself when I was an individual contributor. The first job I had out of college, yeah, I had to be, like, super involved in these little tasks that I was assigned in order for me to be successful at my job. But as I got to the C suite level, that wasn’t the case. Case anymore. So what tends to happen is you’re valued for being involved all the time, or it was a necessity. But then as your context changes, you haven’t changed the script, but you’re still applying that same philosophy is where they get in trouble. so noticing, you know, does the context that I have in front of me still necessitate me being involved at this level? And what tends to happen is the answer is, no, it doesn’t. And so the reframing is okay. So what would. What would be the thought or what would be the belief that would then help me operate at this level? And, you know, for the person that I describe in the book, it was, I need to be involved in the things where I actually add value, where I add the most value rather than I need to be involved. Right. As a blanket statement.
Melina Palmer: Right. I really love, throughout the book, in each of the different chapters, you know, you’re sharing kind of a, process you walked them through to help them to see for themselves, how they’re kind of blocking themselves, what they’re looking to do.
And so, like, in this case was the. Like, you. You came here to do something. What is it that you want to do? And you put the things, like, on the whiteboard and like, what are all the things that you’re doing that you actually wish you didn’t have to do? And being able to see those in that way. And for someone else, it’s a, task about putting marbles in a jar and another person was to sit quietly for an hour and do nothing. And so one. I’m fascinated with the process of knowing the right tactic for the right person in the right moment and how much, kind of trial and error has come in.
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah.
And I mean, I love that you use trial and error, because I really never know if it’s going to work. Right. and everything. This is the. The part of that’s individualized because, you know, the example with this individual was to kind of outline, where do you want to be? Where are you now? And making. Taking kind of inventory. And that might work for some people, it might not work for others. And so as a coach, like, I kind of, you know, again, it goes back to meeting them where they are, what I think would work for them. they have enough trust to say, okay, I’m going to go with it, and I’m going to try it too. They don’t always. Sometimes they resist like, I’m not doing that, and that’s fine too. But I never really know if it’s going to work. And so my strategy, which is the strategy that I would want people to have with themselves, is you may want to try something, but hold it loosely. If it doesn’t work, it’s okay, you know, try something different. Right. Like, if you’re coaching. If you are coaching a kid on a tennis team or a soccer team and tell them to kick the ball and it’s not working, you say, okay, like, it’s not working. Let’s try something different. You wouldn’t just say, oh, my gosh, like, no, that. There doesn’t have to be one solution for everyone. Right. Um, so when I come up with these tactics, they’re not the tactic.
That one has to work. Right. so when I come up with these tactics, they’re not the tactic and the only tactic. they’re really like, there’s probably some way that will heighten the awareness for you, and if that doesn’t heighten the awareness for you, then choose something else. Right. Like, I think about. I have been assigned journaling for probably 30 years of my life by so many different people. And I would try. I can’t tell you how many journals I have. Right. Like, but one page gets filled out and nothing happens.
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins: You know what?
Wasn’t the right time, wasn’t ready for it. But all of a sudden, this year, I’m like, I can do this. I’m journaling. It’s good.
Melina Palmer: Hm.
Muriel Wilkins: But don’t beat yourself up over it.
You know, try something. As long as there was something else that was fulfilling that need, there. There doesn’t have to be this one solution for everyone.
Melina Palmer: Right? Yeah.
And if the process of getting yourself to do the one thing because you feel like you have to because someone assigned it to you, or the. The, you know, survivorship bias of this is what everyone does to be successful. So I have to.
Muriel Wilkins: That’s right.
Melina Palmer: Get up and gratitude journal.
Muriel Wilkins: that’s right.
Because it worked for me, therefore it should work for you, which is one of the beliefs versus what do you think is gonna work for you?
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And so, yeah, it’s this balance of, like, the thing that didn’t come naturally doesn’t mean that that’s not a good solution.
Sometimes getting out of your own way is really important. Trying something, even if it feels awkward or weird. Right. but, you know, once you tried it a couple times, if it. If it’s not your jam, it’s not getting you there. Right. Like, you say, try some. You can try something new.
The Value of External Input and Feedback
Melina Palmer: so one of the other things that I really like throughout the book is in each case, you.
You don’t just take the person’s word for it. you know, you do some investigative reporting. Right. And have, conversations with other people to see kind of what’s really going on. So, like, you say this, let’s go see what’s happening out in the world. So, can you share a little bit about that process? Why is that important?
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, in case you can’t tell, I don’t really take myself completely seriously.
Right. Like, I am. I don’t. Thank God. I don’t. I don’t think I, hold this belief of I know I’m right. and so when I work with individuals, I want to a, make it really clear that I am not the knower of all things. I don’t know what the answer is. I’m here in a journey with you to help you figure out what the answer is. And you work in a context. Okay? You’re not living in the woods by yourself, dealing with these challenges, like, you’re working in a system, in an organization. And so part of it is being able to understand is the way that you’re experiencing yourself, the way others are experiencing you too. And whether there’s a gap or not is not a good or a bad. You know, we. It all depends, again, on what is the outcome that you’re looking to achieve. and so the kicking the tire by getting inventory from others is to help understand, is there a gap there that we need to close? Are they experiencing you differently? Is it a confirmation of what you’re experiencing? So it’s just additional data to help inform the whole process. Sometimes it’s to help the client, kind of be more confident. In the case of somebody who might think they don’t show up as confident, but then everybody like, no, they show up as confident, then I know it’s all them, right? But if it’s. Sometimes it’s the other way around, you know, where somebody might say, oh, I’m fine. Everything’s going great. people love me. And then you go out and they’re like, well, actually, this is what’s happening. And it’s not to then say, oh, you’ve got to then respond to the people’s feedback. It becomes a choice. Because if I have a client who I go out and get input from others, and everybody else is saying, you know what, they just come off as really grumpy in meetings. They suck up all the air in the room, and they just always seem to be angry. And I go back and I share that with my client. My client’s like, that’s fine with me, right? I don’t really care. Or that’s actually the reputation I want to have. You know, I want people to feel uncomfortable around me or fear me or whatever it is, then we’re done, right? We don’t need to do anything, because everything you’re doing, from mindset to action to behavior, is resulting in the impact that you want. But if what you’re telling me is that, no, I want people to feel like they can relate to me. I want people to feel comfortable speaking up in meetings. I want people to feel like they, they like me as a boss or they enjoy working with me as a boss. I can sleep, and I have no judgment around what the outcomes are that you’re looking to drive to. But. But again, if the outcomes that you’re looking to drive to don’t mesh up with how others are experiencing you or how you’re experiencing yourself, then that’s where we have work to do. And that. And so that’s why that external input can be very helpful in trying to figure that out.
Melina Palmer: Definitely. I was remembering one of the other great examples in the book of the person who.
I believe it’s in the I know the right answer. Or what’s the I know I’m right. Yeah. And so you were recording the zoom meeting. And then it’s like he’s watching himself and you were saying, like, making the points of how many times like you interrupted someone or you did this. And it like, sort of felt it was like, but I had to, because they weren’t going to get there or whatever. Okay, so we made some progress, maybe, but like, maybe not as you were looking at you. So let’s do the homework. I want you to watch the faces of everyone else. And like, in that moment where you step back and see, like, oh, no, like my boss. I was like, boss put like, head in hands. Like, like, yeah, you know, and.
Muriel Wilkins: And, and here’s the thing. Nobody is ready to change anything that they do until they care.
Okay. And in that particular example, when he saw the boss, like, ugh, it just so happened that particular client actually really respected that boss and really cared what that boss thought about him and about what he was doing. And his assumption, up until then was that, yeah, everybody else might not agree with what I’m doing or doesn’t get it, right? But he didn’t really care. But his assumption was that his boss actually was aligned with him. So when his boss was like, looking so frustrated, he was like, oh, shoot, right. Like, my boss is not aligned with me. And I’m now recognizing that I will never be able to drive the results I’m trying to drive if my boss is not aligned with me. And oh, by the way, I care whether or not she’s aligned. And that was what did it, you know, Could I have figured that out? No. Right. But again, part of it is if you’re looking to, do anything differently, you’ve got to care about why. The why and why you, Melina, might care about it might be very different than why I care about it. And I say, who cares if it’s different? You know, as long as there’s something, as long as you’re able to, latch onto that thing and help that be your motivator, then that’s all that matters. And my job is to help try to find whatever that person’s motivator is. And sometimes there isn’t. And then the conclusion is, well, then you’re not ready. You’re not coachable. And that’s in this particular topic. And that’s fine, too. Just like with the journaling, one day I will be. One day there will be a motivator, and here I am. Right.
Melina Palmer: I love that.
I know you have, examples in the book, too, where it’s saying, like, if someone comes in and they’re like, I don’t think I need this. Like, okay, cool. Like, I don’t. I don’t need to be here if you don’t want to be here.
Muriel Wilkins: I’m not going to force you. And, you know, and, you know, there’s the sort of, like, you’ll come right back to where you are.
that’s fine. That means things will continue the way they are. That’s just the way it works. And as long as you’re okay with that, then I’m okay with it.
Melina Palmer: And even that initial conversation, you know, that kind of, like, puts it in. It’s like sort of planting that little seed, right?
Bringing it back to our metaphor again. It’s there. Even if they’re. They’re not consciously ready for it yet. They’re not ready to fully take action. But it’s. You can’t unsee, some of those things, right? You might notice or start asking some questions, and maybe they come back in six months or whatever, six years, right? And say, okay, I get it now, right? I didn’t end up getting that promotion I was sure I was going to get or, you know, whatever it is. So, I think there’s, you know, a lot of opportunity just in knowing what’s out there and that other people experience these things, too, right? Just to know that it’s normal to be dealing with. With these aspects and you have opportunities and you can choose to believe something else. Right? Change your clouds.
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that was also, part of why I. One of my motivating factors for even writing this book and even, you know, the podcast work that I do is, you know, when you are a coach or when, you know, there’s such a.
There’s a saying of, you know, leadership is so lonely, right? It’s lonely at the top. And I’m like, yeah. What I realized after coaching so many individuals is, you know, I had to sometimes, like, stop myself from telling some of my clients, like, you’re actually not that special. I have 10 other clients who are dealing with the same thing, you know, and so part of this was sort of to bring it out in the open to say, we actually are not alone. We might feel lonely because of how we’re experiencing it, but we’re not alone that you are. We are human beings at the end of the day who are connected and more similar than we’re not. And even as leaders, we are. The circumstances might be different, but the experience that we’re having is not. Are not always that different. So why not? You know, just knowing that others, recognizing yourself in certain things and realizing that there are ways to get through it maybe would take that, the, the pain.
Melina Palmer: Of that experience down more definitely. And I think for everyone now who is seeing themselves in at least one of these categories and is so excited to go get copy of Leadership Unblocked and dig in and follow you and learn more, you know, what is their best path to do so.
Conclusion and Resources
Muriel Wilkins: Yeah, thank you for asking. So, you can find all things at murielwilkins.com and that’s where all of my, information is around the coaching work, the, the book, the, podcast, all of that.
And then on, on Instagram, I’m at CoachMurielWilkins and on LinkedIn as Muriel Wilkins.
Melina Palmer: Wonderful.
And we’ll make sure to have links in the show notes to make it easy for everyone and just, you know. Thank you again for joining me. It was a very delightful conversation.
Muriel Wilkins: Thank you.
Thank you very much. Enjoyed it.
Melina Palmer: Thank you again to Muriel Wilkins for joining me on the show today.
What got your brain buzzing in today’s conversation? For me, it always comes back to knowing that great leadership, begins with self leadership. Before we can transform a team or organization, we have to transform the stories driving our own behavior. As a reminder, Muriel’s seven hidden blockers are a great lens for doing that. Grab a pen and paper or your notes app if you want to write these down. They are one, I need to be involved. Two, I need it done now. Three, I know I’m right. Four, I can’t make a mistake. Five, If I can do it, so can you. Six, I can’t say no. And seven, I don’t belong here. And yes, there is a chapter dedicated to each of those in the book. Remember, of course, that none of these are inherently bad. They likely helped you succeed at some stage, but if left unchecked, they start to run the show and limit your growth. So this week, take a moment to look inward. Which of these beliefs might have served you once, but, doesn’t fit the leader or person you’re trying to be now. And what’s one small action you’ll take to test a new belief this week? Maybe it’s delegating a project, pausing before saying yes, or asking for input instead of giving an answer. Whatever it is, come share it with me on social media. You’ll find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy, as well as links to my top related past episodes and books, including Leadership Unblocked, Ways to get in touch with myself and Muriel, and more. Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast
It’s all waiting for you in the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com 556 and thank you again to Muriel Wilkins for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It’s going to be a lot of fun. You don’t want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.
Unidentified Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.
