🎙️ The Brainy Business Podcast: Heartfelt Leadership with Claude Silver
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 558 of the Brainy Business, Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy.
Melina Palmer: In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Claude Silver, author of Be Yourself at Work. Ready?
Melina Palmer: Let’s get started.
Announcer: You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here’s your host, Melina Palmer.
👋 Introduction to Claude Silver, Chief Heart Officer
Melina Palmer: Hello.
Melina Palmer: Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast.
Melina Palmer: As we kick off a brand new year, there’s no shortage of messages about becoming your best self.
Melina Palmer: But what if growth isn’t about becoming someone new at all?
Melina Palmer: What if it’s about coming home to who you already are? That’s the heart of today’s conversation with.
Melina Palmer: Claude Silver, the Chief Heart Officer at.
Melina Palmer: VaynerX, the global company founded by Gary Vaynerchuk, whom you have potentially, heard referred to as Gary V. Because it’s.
Melina Palmer: A lot easier to say.
Melina Palmer: Claude is, to her knowledge, the first person in the world to hold that.
Melina Palmer: Chief Heart Officer title.
Melina Palmer: And for more than a decade, she has helped thousands of people find confidence, clarity, and connection in the workplace.
Melina Palmer: Her work proves that when people feel safe to bring their whole selves to work, they.
Melina Palmer: They unlock their creativity, loyalty and potential in ways no policy ever could.
Melina Palmer: Her new book, Be Yourself at Work, is a guide to doing exactly that.
Melina Palmer: Releasing the old stories that keep us small and building workplaces where empathy and courage are part of the everyday rhythm to positive and amazing results, both for the individuals and for the business as a whole.
Melina Palmer: And so when I came across this book, I knew it felt like just.
Melina Palmer: The best way to kick off the new year.
Melina Palmer: You think?
Melina Palmer: as you listen, I encourage you to reflect on this question.
Melina Palmer: What story or song has been playing in your head about who you should be at work and what might change if you rewrote it this year really quickly?
Melina Palmer: Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more.
Melina Palmer: It’s all within the app you’re listening to and at the brainy business.com,558.
Melina Palmer: Now let’s jump right in.
Melina Palmer: Claude Silver, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
Claude Silver: Great to be here, Melina. Thanks for having me.
Melina Palmer: Absolutely.
Melina Palmer: I’m super excited to be able to.
Melina Palmer: Chat with you here today about you, yourself, the work you do, all of that.
Melina Palmer: Before we jump into the Book, of course. can you just share a little.
Melina Palmer: Bit about, yourself and the work that you do for the people who.
Melina Palmer: Don’T yet know you?
Claude Silver: Yes, for sure. my name is Claude Silver.
Claude Silver: I am the Chief Heart Officer at VaynerX, which is a company founded by our CEO, Gary Vaynerchuk.
Claude Silver: Many people might know him on social as Gary V. I’ve been there 11 and a half years, and, I didn’t start as a Chief Heart Officer.
Claude Silver: I was a strategist for a very long time, but always had that heart to help and, really want to leave people better than I found them and everything like that.
Claude Silver: So, I can get into the story of how we got to Chief Heart Officer at some point, but, Gary and I came up with, this title, which is the greatest title in rock and roll.
Claude Silver: But it’s the work that really speaks to me in terms of really, I would say.
Claude Silver: I would say being the emotional barometer for the agency, and Gary would probably say, I set the emotional framework, whichever way you want to say it.
Claude Silver: I’m with people all day, in and out, holding space for them and really helping them, doing my best to help them find solutions to kind of break on through, their imposter syndrome, whatever’s holding them back so they can thrive, be extremely successful, and actually be happy at work.
Melina Palmer: I love it. And of course, you know, that’s like, first thing I have on the list of, like, love this title.
Melina Palmer: Right. I feel like I don’t know that. I’ve seen many, if any, others that have Chief Heart Officer as a title or even just in an organization.
Melina Palmer: So would love to hear the story of kind of how that came, to be.
Claude Silver: Yes, Yes, I will say I believe I’m the first.
Claude Silver: There are more now I’m seeing pop up. as a matter of fact, I just read an article came, out of Dubai this morning on funny job titles, and mine was listed in there among Chief Mistress Mischief Officer, and Chief awesome Officer.
Claude Silver: So, whatever. Que sera sera. Whatever.
💼 The Genesis of the Chief Heart Officer Role
Claude Silver: so when I joined, VaynerMedia, which was May, of 2014, I was probably one of the three oldest people there, meaning I had a lot of work experience under my belt, a lot of agency experience under my belt.
Claude Silver: The average age was 23 when I joined, and we were about 200 people, and I was almost double that age.
Claude Silver: So what I started doing, not only running the large account that, I had, but I started really just being that unofficial mentor.
Claude Silver: I was the person that taught People how to interview. I interviewed.
Claude Silver: I was the person that, you know, chatted with people when they were having challenges just with their manager.
Claude Silver: Just had a lot of unofficial, jobs, which I enjoyed. I didn’t, you know, terminations.
Claude Silver: I went to a lot of different offices and checked it out and just got the feel.
Claude Silver: And so when I told Gary, a, year into me doing my work as, an account strategist, I said to him, you know what?
Claude Silver: I love this place. You’re the best. This is great. But I don’t want to do advertising.
Claude Silver: It just doesn’t matter to me anymore, like, if this is cursive or if this is blue or pink.
Claude Silver: It just doesn’t matter. He said, well, what do you want to do?
Claude Silver: And I said, I only care about the people here. I care about the heartbeat. Heartbeat.
Claude Silver: He said, I need you to do this job for 18 more months.
Claude Silver: And he doesn’t remember me saying, I’ll give you six. But I did give him six months.
Claude Silver: I found my backfill, and I actually resigned because there was no job. There was no job.
Claude Silver: There was someone already in HR. I never wanted to do HR. And so it was time to go.
Claude Silver: And about three months later, we sat down for breakfast, and he just said, that’s it. You’re coming back.
Claude Silver: You’re Chief Heart Officer. And I knew what that meant.
Claude Silver: Not only because I did say, I really want to be at the heartbeat of this place, but what that means to me is that I lead with heart, I lead with empathy, I lead with trust.
Claude Silver: First, those types of things. And so in that breakfast, I. I said three things.
Claude Silver: You know, I don’t want to do HR, right? And he said, yep, but you’re going to learn HR and you’re going to hire a great team around you.
Claude Silver: So 10 years later, we’re rock solid. And I do know HR, which is awesome.
Claude Silver: I said, what are we doing here? You know, you always want to know the vision.
Claude Silver: And he said, we are building the single greatest human organization in the history of time.
Claude Silver: Okay, well, sign me up to that. Sure. Sounds great. And aspirational.
Claude Silver: And then, of course, I said, how do we know if I’m successful?
Claude Silver: And he said the following, which is still my job description.
Claude Silver: You will touch every single employee and infuse the agency with empathy.
Claude Silver: So at that point, we were probably 350. Now we’re 2,000 across the globe.
Claude Silver: And so how do you do that? How do you scale the unscalable? What is empathy?
Claude Silver: How do you turn that on in a person? How do you light someone up?
Claude Silver: How do I make sure I’m entering into every conversation like that? and that is what the job is.
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: Amazing.
Melina Palmer: I mean like as with, I’m sure there are so many people listening that are feeling inspired.
Melina Palmer: Right. But for all sorts of reasons. But a piece of it being like knowing what it is that you want, what you don’t want, and being willing to even step away from something that’s ah, you know, great organization and great team when it’s not the right fit for you, and then having a strong enough relationship with that person for them to want to make, you know, this job for you and.
Melina Palmer: Right. And finding that that fit. so amazing. And you know, for both you and coming from Gary, I mean, how amazing that he wanted to even like invest in making that happen and making it such a great place to work.
Claude Silver: Yeah. I’m very, very lucky that when we first met it was just like opposite sides of a coin.
Claude Silver: It was just seeing my brother and in fact I hung out with him, sometime, before Christmas.
Claude Silver: And we just had such a great conversation and I said to him, you are like my brother.
Claude Silver: Like, how do you know me so well? And he. But I just do.
Claude Silver: And it’s, it’s, it’s a great relationship. And what I will say is Gary is the first boss who said to me, and I explained it in the book, you don’t trust me and this isn’t going to work unless you trust me all in. And I had to really look at myself and what was holding me back from that.
Claude Silver: And the minute I was able to go all in freely, things just opened up.
Claude Silver: I mean I was probably 98% there, but that 2% was still lingering, you know, residue from old bosses, I would say.
Claude Silver: And as soon as I could let that go, I would say things really. It just, everything took shape.
🤝 Building Trust Through Vulnerability
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Melina Palmer: Well, knowing that that story is like maybe halfway through the book, but I feel like even just sharing a little bit where someone’s saying like, what does it mean to not trust them?
Melina Palmer: And like, what was going on? What’s the scenario? Can you share a little bit about that, story of kind of what happened there and you know, kind of what clicked for you in that process.
Claude Silver: Yeah. So I think a lot of us want to please our bosses.
Claude Silver: I think a lot of us want to. Yes, our bosses. Yes, I got that. Yes.
Claude Silver: I’ll take care of that. Yeah, totally. I agree. And that was the piece that was holding me back, was that I was still in people please mode.
Claude Silver: I was still in almost, almost. I don’t want to say robotic, but I understand how to be empathetic and how to scale that.
Melina Palmer: I do.
Claude Silver: It’s. It’s in my blood, it’s in my bones so that I could do.
Claude Silver: But it was then coming together with him, which was, you know, I had some hesitation.
Claude Silver: Do I give him only good news? Do I give him bad news?
Claude Silver: Do I tell him when the sky is falling? Do I tell him the sky is falling and this is what I’m doing to fix it?
Claude Silver: I just didn’t know because I just didn’t know how far I could go.
Claude Silver: And that held me back, I will say, from actually being my real, real self at work.
Claude Silver: Which is to say, yeah, listen, I do believe this glass is half full, but I can see that it might become empty real soon.
Claude Silver: And this is what I’m going to do about it. This is what I’m going to do about it.
Claude Silver: Part that I had to get very comfortable with my voice in saying that and being ready for him to say, cool, I doubt it, probably going to go this way, but try it your way, right?
Claude Silver: I had to be okay with whatever he was going to say and know that it was only coming from a good place.
Claude Silver: It was coming from a place of, we want to make this place the single greatest human organization in the history of time.
Claude Silver: So what are we going to do there? And the more I was able to just trust him, really just trust him, it was like, oh, I felt freer to say, hey, I think this is a problem.
Claude Silver: This is what I’m doing. Hey, I need your advice here. I don’t know what to do.
Claude Silver: and that really helped me because it was like, oh, I’m asking him for his advice.
Claude Silver: It’s not because I’m terrible, it’s not because I’m weak, It’s not because I’m not smart.
Claude Silver: It’s because I actually need the CEO’s advice here and I want it.
Claude Silver: And I think that’s what, you know, kind of like made the soup really, really taste right. Was like, okay.
Claude Silver: And so he would add in his pieces and I would add in my pieces.
Claude Silver: And sure enough, like, it started to gel. That doesn’t mean that it’s always gelling. It’s relationship.
Claude Silver: We have to always work at it. But, trusting my boss was the greatest thing I could do.
Claude Silver: Because I’ve been at this job 11 and a half years. I don’t have any questions or doubt about him.
Claude Silver: I don’t have a doubt about where we’re going, where we’re headed, and why, like other jobs where I was there for two years, two and a half years, 18 months, because I was like, I know where you want to go.
Claude Silver: This is a Titanic. Does everyone see this is a Titanic?
Melina Palmer: Yeah, there’s a bit of.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, yeah, I totally. I think there are many people listening that know they have been on in a team or at a company where.
Melina Palmer: It’S like, you’re saying some right things.
Melina Palmer: And like, but what about the iceberg?
Melina Palmer: Right?
Melina Palmer: Like, it’s right here. What are we doing?
Melina Palmer: So I like that comparison, point. we get that for sure.
Melina Palmer: Well, as you were talking about and sharing that story, it makes me think a lot about.
Melina Palmer: So in behavioral science, we talk about vulnerability loops and how they help to build trust.
Melina Palmer: And the thing about that is someone has to be, willing to, like, open the loop, right.
Melina Palmer: And you have to feel vulnerable. It has to be a little bit like, oh, that feeling we try to avoid all the time.
Melina Palmer: But when you’re willing to do that.
Melina Palmer: The other person will typically, like, if it’s the right fit, right, they’ll open up, you know, the other side of the loop, and it continues and it builds really great trust.
Melina Palmer: And so I think in both sides, like, what insight do you have for.
Melina Palmer: So there’s actually, you know, Gary being willing to say, hey, you don’t trust me and we need that. Right.
Melina Palmer: That is a thing. Like, he didn’t have to say that. He could have just been feeling that.
Melina Palmer: There are plenty of managers who’ve known that someone’s not trusting them and maybe they resist, and are going to become a little bit more aggressive.
Melina Palmer: They stand off, whatever, and like, well, they better figure it out.
Melina Palmer: Like, how are they going to figure it out if you don’t tell them the problem? Right. But.
Melina Palmer: And then also for you to kind of like, accept.
Melina Palmer: Accept that and then be willing to receive and change in that.
Melina Palmer: So what advice do you have for people both on, like, opening up that kind of vulnerability loop like Gary did, like you did, on your side of that.
Melina Palmer: And like, if their boss isn’t Gary Vee, you know, what sort of advice do you have there?
Claude Silver: Yeah, that is, you know, if their boss isn’t Gary Vee is a. Is a.
Claude Silver: Is a big point because I do work for someone who believes in humans and they’re vocal about that.
Claude Silver: so I’m very fortunate there. However, knowing that I was always me at my other jobs and never had A Gary Vee I definitely knew that I had to get very strong internally and very self aware of kind of how I ticked what, what upset me, all of those things so that I could be, I could, I felt like I could speak more freely to my managers now.
Claude Silver: Before I was at Vayner, I was in London. Very different culture which I had to get used to.
Claude Silver: So you actually don’t share a lot which was very, very interesting coming from San Francisco for 18 years which you know, hello London for four and then I’ve been in New York.
Claude Silver: So what I will say is either you, this all starts at self awareness for you, the individual.
Claude Silver: And if you feel like you, there’s something holding you back from being your best, whatever your best is, that’s up to you.
Claude Silver: Then I do think you owe it to yourself to find a way to put a toe in the water A and then another toe in the water to let your manager or someone at your place of work know that X makes me feel uncomfortable.
Claude Silver: Or I really want to tell you that my family member is in the hospital and I’m just not quite there today.
Claude Silver: You have to be able to, you have to be willing to get vulnerable, courageous in order to open up that door.
Claude Silver: Now if you happen to have a boss, who is showing you their dogs and what they did on the weekend and being free, open and free about I have three kids and all of this stuff like, wow, okay, you hit the jackpot there.
Claude Silver: Because there’s an opening of someone who is your boss letting you know about their life if they have a life outside of this job.
Claude Silver: That right there is an incredible opening for you to start to comfortably share bits and pieces of yourself that the reason I say bits and pieces is you don’t want an avalanche.
Claude Silver: there’s no reason you have to all of a sudden be like, well this is who I am.
Claude Silver: I dress up as a clown every single day. But here I wear a collared shirt like you don’t need to do that.
Claude Silver: You can just say yes, I happen to like playing a clown on the weekend.
Claude Silver: You know, share, just share certain things. I mean a funny metaphor but we are so afraid to take off our masks and take off our armor in the workplace because many, many workplaces are not set up to allow you to be who you are.
Claude Silver: They want you to fit inside a box. Don’t go outside, don’t, don’t color outside that line because we don’t know what to do with you.
Claude Silver: Right? However, times are changing, Gen Z Gen Alpha. They will be our bosses very soon.
Claude Silver: And they are demanding another way of working. And they are vulnerable. They are courageous.
Claude Silver: They tell you right there, I have ADHD, I need to go to my therapist at 3:30. Okay.
Claude Silver: Well, as a Gen Xer, I prayed that I could get a therapy appointment on a Saturday because there was no way I was leaving work and there was no way I was telling you that I was even going to a therapist, much less a dentist.
Claude Silver: So times have changed and I really am, I’m very, I feel, I just feel a whole lot of promise about these next few generations that are coming into the workforce or in the workforce that they’re just going to say like, that doesn’t work for me.
Claude Silver: If you want to retain me, these are the things I’m going to need from you.
Claude Silver: And so there has to be some kind of commitment on both sides.
🌟 Embracing the New Workforce: Gen Z and Gen Alpha
Melina Palmer: Yeah. it’s fascinating.
Melina Palmer: Just as you were talking, I was realizing, and I’m sure you know, but.
Melina Palmer: Like working at Vayner, you must have like you say the average age was 23 when you start.
Melina Palmer: So it’s still that like, like the, the newest of the ambitious young people are like dreaming to come work with you.
Melina Palmer: So you get to kind of see that like, what’s coming before the rest of us get to like, know what’s on the horizon in some way.
Claude Silver: Yes. I mean, you know, the, one of Gary’s gifts which I think he has taught many of us, put it this way, I think he’s taught all of us and I think there are people that get it and people are getting it, is to always, focus on where people put their attention.
Claude Silver: That’s what makes him an incredible marketer. Right. People put their attention.
Claude Silver: He happens to use social media as his playground. He’s iconic.
Claude Silver: He could use outdoor, out of home advertising if you wanted.
Claude Silver: And so in social you have a, focus group that is immediate.
Claude Silver: You put something up there, you see how they respond, you see what people are spending their time with or how they want to dig deeper into Gummy bears, something like that.
Claude Silver: I mention all of that because we have a very strong resident class and we bring in residents three times a year.
Claude Silver: It’s three months. You get paid, you get paid to learn and you get paid to execute.
Claude Silver: So you are really getting paid to put millions and millions of dollars on social media platforms for X Brand.
Claude Silver: That’s a big, big responsibility. The reason I say all of this is yes, we are getting that young blood in. And, and I can see exactly how they are managing their day, how they’re managing their schedule, how they’re jamming with people in the kitchen, how they’re, scared to speak up, all of that stuff.
Claude Silver: So I also get, I would say, a first row seat into seeing where these generations are spending their time too, if that makes m sense.
Claude Silver: It’s kind of like it’s sandwiched. It is the job that we do as Vayner and what we’re creating for our clients each and every day.
Claude Silver: But it is also what makes this company so great, is we all generalization, spend time with each other.
Claude Silver: What’s going on for you? Are you having a hard time? Is your father in the hospital?
Claude Silver: Did you get a raise in the salary?
📊 Scaling Empathy: Systems for Support
Claude Silver: Did you get engaged?
Claude Silver: Did you have a terrible review? We, you know, I, I have systems in place to catch all of that now that, if someone is having a terrible day, did not get the raise that they wanted, they know where to go, they know who to speak to, and we know how to kind of solve that problem.
Claude Silver: It might not going to go overnight, but there are places to go to get yourself heard and solutions to be found.
Claude Silver: So if, if that makes sense.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I know that.
Melina Palmer: So earlier on you talked about how you knew how to scale empathy.
Melina Palmer: That was something that you, like, intuitively or through past experience, felt comfortable with.
Melina Palmer: I’m guessing the vast majority of the world does not feel like they know how to do that. so.
Melina Palmer: And then you were just talking about some systems that you have in place to be catching those sorts of things now, like, again, knowing we’re outside of what’s in the book.
Melina Palmer: But I think it’s interesting as far as conversation here, like how what are some of those tips or tricks or some things that maybe feel like you should do, but is like, definitely stay away from that.
Melina Palmer: you know, what have you learned over the years that’s, helpful for anyone who’s now feeling like, I wish I could do something like that?
Melina Palmer: Where would I even start?
Claude Silver: So I want to break empathy down for a second.
Claude Silver: So people think that empathy means putting myself in your shoes, which I could never do in a million years.
Claude Silver: I just can’t. Metaphorically, we have different shoe sizes, but I will never know what your actual lived experience is like, and you will never know what mine is.
Claude Silver: So empathy is an emotion. How we express empathy is kindness and compassion. When you break it down that way.
Claude Silver: We are taught how to be kind at 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8. We are taught how to be Kind at a very, very young age.
Claude Silver: Kindness is a form of empathy. What I say empathy is, is riding as a passenger with you.
Claude Silver: I am along for the ride. My hand is on your shoulder telling you, it’s going to be all right.
Claude Silver: We’re going to get through this. But I don’t take it on. I have to separate myself.
Claude Silver: If I was to take it on or step in your shoes, I would have, A, no boundaries, and B, not be able to help you, because I would be taking it on.
Claude Silver: You need me to be next to you riding shotgun, your wing woman.
Claude Silver: To be able to just walk with you and say, you know what? I know this is really hard.
Claude Silver: I can see that you’re very disappointed about not getting that raise.
Claude Silver: I’m not sure what we can do about it. However, let’s go talk to your manager.
Claude Silver: Let’s go talk to someone in the People Experience team.
Claude Silver: And finally, like, let’s go talk to Claude and see if she’s able to move any mountains here.
Claude Silver: Like, was your performance that stellar? So that’s the way if.
Claude Silver: When I break empathy down like that, I think it’s a little bit easier to understand, which is, it’s being the bigger person, it’s showing kindness, it’s using emotional intelligence skills, it’s taking accountability that you’re a human being and you see another human being in need.
Claude Silver: So what are you going to do? Are you going to say, yep, that person’s in need and it’s uncomfortable for me, and walk away?
Claude Silver: Okay, that’s what most of us do. Or are you going to say, are you okay?
Claude Silver: Like, I don’t really know you, but are you okay? Do you need to talk to anyone? Right.
Claude Silver: That’s what we want to do. We want to put ourselves out there and say, you know what?
Claude Silver: This person’s hurting. This person’s crying in the bathroom. This person just celebrated the fact that, you know, they won that big pitch.
Claude Silver: Like, how are. Are we going to act with others? That is also going to keep us feeling, like, safe.
Claude Silver: We’re okay. We’re not merging into them. That’s a big deal. Boundaries. Lack of boundaries is a.
Claude Silver: Is a huge can of worms.
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: Fascinating.
Melina Palmer: Thank you for sharing.
Melina Palmer: I recently had a conversation and was reminded of a study that was done, in a conversation earlier this week, where there were just thinking about, like, you were saying that people tend to just kind of walk by or not take the time to, like, invest in that.
Melina Palmer: So the study that was done, it was actually for a group of, people who were studying to become priests, and they were told that they were going to go and be giving a presentation on, the Good Samaritan, like that they were going to be talking about that.
Melina Palmer: And then they had to get across campus. And so for half of them, they were told they had an hour to get there.
Melina Palmer: You know, that’s like all the time in the world to get over.
Melina Palmer: The other was like, you have to be there in like, two minutes. You’re already late.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Melina Palmer: And so on the way, there was someone who was very clearly struggling and in pain, maybe like, laying on the ground groaning or something.
Melina Palmer: almost everyone stopped when they had the hour of time.
Melina Palmer: And basically no one stopped when they only had two minutes.
Melina Palmer: And these are people training to be priests, talking about the Good Samaritan.
Melina Palmer: And they don’t end up stopping on their way over because you just are so laser focused, right?
Melina Palmer: on where you’re trying to get and like, you know, blinders on everything else.
Melina Palmer: And just knowing how overwhelmed we are at work. We’re so busy, pulled in so many directions, and just life, you know, in general things.
Melina Palmer: you know, I think it is hard sometimes to stop and look up. Right.
Melina Palmer: And to have that space, whether it’s to evaluate, like, who actually am I as a person and how do I want to show up, or what’s going on with the person across the room versus just like, this is the deadline I have, so I have to just put all my energy into that and not look at anything else.
Claude Silver: Yeah, I like, I love that story, by the way.
Claude Silver: That is a great riddle in many, many ways. It’s, a what, what do you do?
Claude Silver: For me, it comes down to having a culture that understands it’s in the water, meaning it’s in the water that we all drink, that we want to be the bigger person in every situation, and if not every, we want to learn how to be the bigger person.
Claude Silver: What does that look like to actually, as a human being, take accountability for another human being?
Claude Silver: That’s as basic as I can say it. That’s a big statement.
Claude Silver: So I have to break those things down in a workplace.
Claude Silver: Because a statement like that, if I said to someone across from me, a manager who wants to become a leader, you really need to, learn how to be there for others.
Claude Silver: I am not going to have to say. And that means knowing yourself, emotionally, regulating yourself, and being able to put your judgment aside and figure out how to create a space very quickly to reach out to another person that’s hurting so that the space that’s created, isn’t you.
Claude Silver: It’s a space that’s created for this person to jump in, for this person to do whatever they need to do so you don’t take it on, which is very difficult, you know, so that’s, that’s a lot of the job, which is, well, why wouldn’t you stop?
Claude Silver: I know, I know I said you have two minutes to get across the campus. But someone’s hurting.
Claude Silver: What is more important, your win or someone hurting? And that’s a judgment call. I can’t do that for people.
Claude Silver: I only know what I would do, you know, And I hope that we’re building a culture and know that we’re building a culture that asks people to think about are they going to stop or not stop?
Claude Silver: My hope is that most of them stop. Right?
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: And be you.
Melina Palmer: And we have to be looking for it and be thoughtful.
Melina Palmer: And it’s prepping kind of in advance, and everything really, that goes, with that.
🛠️ Cultivating Culture with the IKEA Effect
Claude Silver: Yeah.
Claude Silver: Well, what I would say, I think the other thing I would say is when everyone knows that building this culture, cultivating the culture is their responsibility too.
Claude Silver: What I say to people in orientation is, hey, congratulations, all you new people, you are just as responsible for this culture as I am.
Claude Silver: You are now going to put your fingerprint, your heart print on this culture. And how awesome is that?
Claude Silver: How awesome.
Melina Palmer: Bringing in, you know, gotta always be tying it back to the behavioral science. Right.
Melina Palmer: Because that’s my, my role in this. But so that’s the IKEA effect.
Melina Palmer: people like things more when they have a chance of, being able to help build them. Right.
Melina Palmer: and I love when, I mean, how cool that people decide to name their finding.
Melina Palmer: The IKEA effect is just fun and funny anyway. But, so love that when you can bring people in, and especially when it’s that like, first day sort of, you know, like, welcome, you’re part of this, just starting things off in that way you can think about how that creates a brand new trajectory.
Melina Palmer: Then if it’s like, do I even matter? Am I even that important?
Melina Palmer: Like, you’re, we’re nervous and scared and, feeling stressed on our first days, right.
Melina Palmer: As we come into a new role, am I going to perform? Are they people going to care?
Melina Palmer: Like, you’re so cognitively strained in that process and then to be able to have a little bit of comfort and go, oh, I do.
Melina Palmer: I matter, I belong here. Right. Helps them to, just feel like they, both fit in and belong.
Melina Palmer: And I know you talk about those things in the book. So maybe you want. That’s a decent segue.
Melina Palmer: If you’re going to say something else, feel way free to do that too.
Claude Silver: What I would say is agree everything you said.
Claude Silver: And every, every time an individual feels as though they are willing to show up, they are willing to take up space, they are willing to be big in the room.
Claude Silver: There’s an inner voice there that actually says, I belong here.
Claude Silver: They are will when they are willing to do it.
Claude Silver: It’s very difficult to bring things out of people if they’re not willing to willing or open to share.
Claude Silver: Whether or not that’s an idea, whether or not that’s an opinion, it doesn’t really matter.
Claude Silver: So I would say, you know, so much of this work, which is why we’re chatting, is behavioral science is all about human behavior.
Claude Silver: And you and I know that we can only change and affect our own behavior.
Claude Silver: So when people are coming to VaynerMedia, I truly believe after they’ve been interviewing with us for, you know, six rounds, five rounds, they definitely get the idea of who we are and how our, how we do our culture here.
Claude Silver: Right. And what is important to us. And psychological safety is important to us and connection is important to us.
Claude Silver: They get, they then get to make the choice of this is the type of culture that they want to be in, or would they rather punch in and punch out?
Claude Silver: And that’s cool too, right? This is. But this is who we are.
✅ Hiring for Culture Fit and Accountability
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: And having that be just really clear for people so that you do attract and bring in the, you know, more of the right fit.
Melina Palmer: Right. And just helping everyone to be in the best scenario.
Melina Palmer: Because like you said, it’s not that it’s bad for those who want to clock in, clock out and have that type of a role.
Melina Palmer: And it doesn’t mean that’s what they want for their whole life and they’re stuck in it forever.
Melina Palmer: but in going through a process and being able to let someone determine.
Melina Palmer: Like, yeah, you know, I don’t think I want this right now.
Melina Palmer: Like, great.
Melina Palmer: Like, best for both to figure that out in the interview process and to put that investment in upfront to make sure that it’s really, really, really the right fit before that kind of day one, because it’s a lot harder to phase someone out than it is to just never have hired them.
Claude Silver: Oh, yeah. And then it, you know, cost, what, 33% to then go re. Recruit that backfill.
Claude Silver: So, yeah, we want to be, we want to be very choiceful in who we bring in and ask a lot of open ended questions such as, you know, when was the time that you failed?
Claude Silver: Listen for if they’re talking about I statements or is it we or is it he or she failed?
Claude Silver: That’s an easy thing to do. Listening people and hearing how they answer those questions.
Claude Silver: When was a time when you and your team succeeded? Listen, is it an I or is it a we?
Claude Silver: You know, and these are, these are things that all of us can do.
Melina Palmer: So out of curiosity in that is.
Melina Palmer: It that when it’s asking about where someone failed, you want them to be taking accountability and saying I did a thing.
Melina Palmer: If it’s talking about the success of the team, that it would be more of a we did this, that would be great.
Claude Silver: That would be ideal. Yeah. Unless they’re an individual contributor.
Claude Silver: And in that case, I know we’re hiring them for an individual contributor role and they really don’t work with other people.
Claude Silver: But yeah, like are you part of a team or are you a lone ranger?
Melina Palmer: Mm,
Claude Silver: Right.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. Love that.
Claude Silver: Yeah.
✍️ The Message of Be Yourself at Work
Melina Palmer: Well, I’m, I have. So like I told you before we started chat, that you know, we started chatting before we turn hit record.
Melina Palmer: Right. That I have so many notes of things I wanted to talk about and I’ve been able to loop some of them in, but the conversation has been so, just fun where it’s been taking us.
Melina Palmer: so I’m gonna ask, just bringing it back to, you know, the title of the book.
Melina Palmer: And we’ve been of course talking about this idea. But so the book is Be Yourself at Work.
Melina Palmer: can you share a little bit about, you know, what does it mean to be yourself?
Melina Palmer: Why’d you write the book, you know, all of that.
Claude Silver: Someone asked me actually the other night why I wrote the book.
Claude Silver: And I’m so happy they did because that’s the end. All be all.
Claude Silver: I wrote the book because I’ve been in the workplace for a very long time. I have myself shrunk.
Claude Silver: I have witnessed other people shrink. I have witnesses. I have witnessed cultures be extremely hardcore cutthroat.
Claude Silver: I have witnessed cultures and leaders be full of fear and sharing that out on the floor.
Claude Silver: And most importantly, we spend all this time at work and the fact that I know that people open that door or turn on their laptop and they all of a sudden put their wonderful self in the back and think that we want to see this cookie cutter part of them or this robot or we want everyone to look the same.
Claude Silver: It’s just not, it’s not True. The only way to change that is by a example.
Claude Silver: Leading by example and talking about how you can do this in a way that works for you.
Claude Silver: And again, I’m not asking people to literally just go in and be there, you know, take dive off the high dive.
Claude Silver: This is literally like, you gotta do what’s right for you and what’s best for you.
Claude Silver: And I believe that you can do it. So I want this book to be my hand on someone’s shoulder and saying, you got this and I got you, and there’s nothing you can’t do here.
Claude Silver: There’s nothing that we can’t fix. So why is it so important to be at work?
Claude Silver: Well, because when you are not at work and you are keeping. You are withholding yourself and a.
Claude Silver: That is going to cause you a lot of stress. That is going to come back to catch you.
Claude Silver: That is going to cause you a lot of anxiety because people are going to think that you’re just a.
Claude Silver: Okay the way you are. And then something’s going to happen.
Claude Silver: A, client is going to say something and you are going to react in a certain way, and people are going to be like, what’s going on with Bobby?
Claude Silver: That. What. We’ve never seen him react like that. He’s just usually very stoic.
Claude Silver: Well, no, Bobby got triggered about what the client said. And so. So now we need to find out.
Claude Silver: Now we need to dig into that. There’s no reason for us to put extra weight on our backs.
Claude Silver: We have enough. We have enough demand. We have enough. There’s enough hustle in this world.
Claude Silver: There’s enough, you know, I need to get this done yesterday. There’s enough comparing ourselves to other people.
Claude Silver: I would really like the workplace to be a place where people can feel comfortable sharing more of themselves, because that will only add to creativity.
Claude Silver: That will only add to friendship. That will only add to some great innovation or experiment.
Claude Silver: If we get more people feeling like they’re safe at work, feeling like they do matter at work.
Claude Silver: And I don’t think it’s difficult for leaders to do that and to leave that kind of map.
Claude Silver: I just think it’s difficult for humans. Leadership, you know, leadership’s a choice.
Claude Silver: You get to make that choice each and every day. How am I going to show up today?
Claude Silver: You know, when I look in the mirror in the morning and I’m, you know, finishing getting ready, I’m like, that’s it.
Claude Silver: Yeah, I’m a leader. I got that. Some days I don’t feel like a leader, you know, some Days, I’m not as, not as sharp.
Claude Silver: Okay. Well, I have to be very mindful and understand my energy, how to amount that energy.
Claude Silver: But, but more than anything, I don’t want people to walk into the workplace feeling shame, feeling triggered, feeling like they can’t, feeling like they failed.
Claude Silver: That’s already. We already carry that all day long with.
Claude Silver: Whether or not it’s from our families, whether or not it’s from, early education, it doesn’t really matter. It happens.
Claude Silver: And all of us have that extra weight. And when you are able to take that backpack off your back, slowly but surely, you will feel happier.
Claude Silver: Will feel happier. Whether or not you do it in the workplace, whether or not you do it on a surfboard, it doesn’t matter.
Claude Silver: You will feel freer, feel more liberated. And that’s what, that’s what we want.
📈 The Business Value of Authenticity and Empathy
Melina Palmer: Absolutely.
Melina Palmer: Well, and so that definitely gets, at the individual side, right. Of like, why it matters as a person.
Melina Palmer: And for anyone who’s maybe saying, but that’s not our, it’s not our company’s job to make you feel like you.
Melina Palmer: It’s our company’s job to do, run a business and to sell widgets or whatever it is that, that we’re doing.
Melina Palmer: and so, you know, the, what’s in it for me for the, the c.
Melina Palmer: Ah suite, if there’s someone who’s feeling skeptical there.
Claude Silver: Well, it’s called, retaining high performers. That’s actually the name of the game today is making sure that you can create consistency and continuity within your company, that people have IP and they stay there and they pass it on.
Claude Silver: that’s the big name here, which is we want to retain the top talent.
Claude Silver: We also want to attract wonderful talent coming in that’s going to be able to bring different curiosities and different ideas into the workplace.
Claude Silver: You know, we want a workplace where people enjoy working together because for most of us, we work in teams.
Claude Silver: For most of us, even if you’re, the CEO, you need people around you to get things done.
Claude Silver: So, you know, being able to collaborate, being able to, understand what it’s like to be in a professional setting and know that, you know, you’re not going to spread your pizza all over the desk, you’re going to keep your stuff, you’re going to keep your area as tidy as you can because you sit next to someone else and they don’t want your pizza over there.
Claude Silver: So the benefit, there’s so many benefits which also increase the ROI of your company.
Claude Silver: You have longevity, you have loyalty, and you have continuity.
Claude Silver: Well, then that’s fantastic because I want you to stay on my brand for the next seven years.
Claude Silver: You already are hitting home runs. Why would I want to lose you?
Claude Silver: You know, so, you know, that’s what I would really say.
Claude Silver: I mean, it’s really retaining, attracting, you know, recruiting and then growing and developing these people so that they can then go on and be the CMO of whatever they want to be the CMO of.
Claude Silver: Or they can go start their own company.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, definitely. I, you know, for.
Melina Palmer: I talk with clients all the time about when it comes to that culture piece, that it’s like the, when the culture’s bad, the people that are most likely to be able to leave, that have the most options and that are like, know who they are and what they care about and what they’re willing to tolerate and all of that, what they’re worth, any of that.
Melina Palmer: those top performers are the first ones to go. Right. Because they’ve got options. I don’t need to stay here.
Melina Palmer: I’m out.
Melina Palmer: Right. And then you just get left with the, like the worst group, you know, for the team, maybe because they’re not a fit for you or anything else, but people that are just gonna hang on in that, that role.
Melina Palmer: And so when you don’t invest in that culture, and helping people to feel comfortable, it’s just. Yeah. Bad.
Melina Palmer: Ah, all around.
Claude Silver: Yeah, it’s bad all. It’s bad all around.
Claude Silver: And it’s just a funky place to be. And you know, it’s funky because you get the Sunday scaries and you don’t want to go in on Monday.
Claude Silver: That is no. Or you don’t want to go in on Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday. Been there.
Claude Silver: No thank you. I do not want to live that way.
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: And just that it doesn’t have to.
Melina Palmer: Be that way, which I think, you know, in a good.
🎵 Changing the Negative Inner Dialogue
Melina Palmer: One of the things that’s like, I knew I had to bring up and it’s from the very beginning of the book and I feel like it’s a good, like, bow we can put on here.
Melina Palmer: But the idea of changing the song.
Melina Palmer: In your head is.
Melina Palmer: And while we potentially don’t have time for the whole story that’s around that, experience.
Melina Palmer: But I love that idea as a vocalist, just, that idea.
Melina Palmer: So can you share a little bit about, how someone can, understand and then change the song in their head.
Claude Silver: Yeah, yeah, it is a great story. we’re constantly telling our thing ourself.
Claude Silver: We constantly have an inner dialogue going on. Most of us have a negative inner dialogue going on, and most of us have it on repeat.
Claude Silver: I don’t belong here. I’m not smart enough. They don’t like me. I fail. They’re going to know I suck.
Claude Silver: All that. Right? It’s called the imposter syndrome. Or you have limiting beliefs that have been birthed, you know, from school.
Claude Silver: Probably those. That song that you. That. That song that you have in your head, I’m equating to the inner voice in your head that says, I’m dumb, I’m dumb, I’m dumb, I’m dumb.
Claude Silver: Only you can hear it. Only you can actually spell it out on a piece of paper.
Claude Silver: And really only you can change it. Sure, you can get help to change it, but what you need to do is say, wow, is that really true?
Claude Silver: Is it true? Am I dumb? Where’s the evidence that I’m dumb? I’m at VaynerMedia. I work for Gary Vaynerchuk.
Claude Silver: I’ve been there for a long time. I don’t think that means I’m dumb.
Claude Silver: Okay, so if I’m not dumb, what am I? What’s the opposite? I’m, a different kind of learner.
Claude Silver: I learn through experiences, so I want to put something else in my brain.
Claude Silver: Change the song in your head that is going to lift me, not put me down.
Claude Silver: We do that constantly to ourselves. We put ourselves down constantly, and that is what holds us back, that we allow ourselves to shrink because we are telling ourselves we stink.
Claude Silver: And you don’t stink. Look for the evidence where you don’t, because there’s tons of it.
Claude Silver: And if you can’t find it, find a buddy that will.
Claude Silver: Say, you just hit that incredible analysis out of the park. What are you talking about?
Claude Silver: You just aced your exams. What are you talking about?
Claude Silver: And, it’s tough because that song in your head has been there for a very long time.
Claude Silver: So you have to be willing to do the work to really excavate it, see if it’s true or not true, and then find what is true.
Claude Silver: Find that new song in your head that is going to drive you forward rather than leave you hanging back.
Melina Palmer: I love that.
wrap-up and Resources
Melina Palmer: And, just as I was hoping a really great thought kind of to end on for people as we put the bow on the episode, with that in mind, knowing everyone is now going to be so excited to get their copy of, of Be Yourself at Work.
Melina Palmer: And as I told you, we’re launching this at the, this episode coming out here, kind of first of the year, you know, feeling this new vibe for everyone who is so excited to get their copy of the book and.
Melina Palmer: To follow you and learn more, any.
Melina Palmer: Of that, you know, what’s their best path to do.
Claude Silver: So, yeah, thank you so much. you can go to ClaudSilver dot com. That’s my website.
Claude Silver: ClaudSilver dot com. You can go to BeYourselfbybook dot com and obviously you can go to Amazon or Barnes and Nobles, any of that.
Claude Silver: I’m really vocal on LinkedIn. That’s pretty much the place that I like to share thoughts and I like to get thoughts and whatnot.
Claude Silver: So write me. I would love to write you back and I really would love to know what you thought of the book and are, there certain areas that stuck out to you that you find helpful?
Claude Silver: So thank you so much for having me.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, absolutely.
Melina Palmer: what a fun conversation and such a useful book for everyone.
Melina Palmer: So thank you again, Claude, for joining me on the show.
Melina Palmer: And we will have links in the show notes for everyone to, check all that out, make it quick and easy for them.
Melina Palmer: But, yeah, thank you again. And, here’s to a year and beyond of all of us being ourselves.
Claude Silver: Let’s do it. Let’s do it. Happy New Year.
Melina Palmer: Thank you again to Claude Silver for joining me on the show today.
Melina Palmer: What got your brain buzzing in today’s conversation? For me, it’s Claude’s point that empathy doesn’t mean carrying someone else’s weight, it means walking beside them.
Melina Palmer: That small distinction changes everything. It allows us to stay grounded and not totally weighed down while still showing up with compassion, which is the foundation of trust in any relationship, both professional or personal.
Melina Palmer: I also loved her story about that song in your head and when she was on that hike, it really resonated.
Melina Palmer: With me in reading the book.
Melina Palmer: And we all have one, right?
Melina Palmer: Those are those quiet, often critical thoughts that shape how we show up each day.
Melina Palmer: And, you know, if yours has a melody, I love that, but, you know.
Melina Palmer: Of course it’s not required.
Melina Palmer: Maybe yours says, you’re not ready, you need to be tougher or you have to prove yourself before you can relax.
Melina Palmer: And let them see who you really are.
Melina Palmer: But what would happen if this year you changed that song to something more true to you?
Melina Palmer: Something that says, I belong here, I have something valuable to offer, and I can lead with heart and still drive results that small mental reframe could change everything for you and for your team around you when you lead by example.
Melina Palmer: Because when we feel psychologically safe, we become more creative, collaborative and resilient.
Melina Palmer: And that’s why leaders like Claude and Gary Vee invest so much energy into building emotionally intelligent organizations.
Melina Palmer: Because empathy, scales, performance, and being yourself is good business.
Melina Palmer: So as we begin 2026, maybe instead of resolutions that add way too much pressure, what if you chose one that brought a little more peace?
Melina Palmer: Just show up as yourself and it doesn’t have to be everywhere, in every context and to a great extreme.
Melina Palmer: You don’t have to go from zero to a hundred here everywhere.
Melina Palmer: But even a small shift, one moment or conversation could be enough to create that change momentum that you’ve been needing.
Melina Palmer: What’s that first thing that you’re going to do?
Melina Palmer: That one small thing you can do right away? I would love to hear about it.
Melina Palmer: Please do come share it with me on social media. Or if you prefer to share something.
Melina Palmer: That really stood out for you from.
Melina Palmer: The conversation, I would love to hear about any and all of it.
Melina Palmer: Please do come share it with me on social media.
Melina Palmer: You’ll find me as the Brainy Biz.
Melina Palmer: Pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn.
Melina Palmer: There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links for my top related past episodes.
Melina Palmer: And books, including Be Yourself at Work.
Melina Palmer: Plus Ways to Connect and more.
Melina Palmer: It’s all waiting for you in the.
Melina Palmer: App you’re listening to and at, the brainybusiness.com 558. And thank you again to Claude Silver for joining me on the show today.
Melina Palmer: It was a delight to chat with and learn from you.
Melina Palmer: Join me next time for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast.
Melina Palmer: It’s going to be a lot of fun.
Melina Palmer: You don’t want to to miss it.
Melina Palmer: Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.
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Announcer: Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly.
Announcer: For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.
