How to Get What You Want

Introduction to the Episode

Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 582 of the Brainy Business, understanding the psychology of why people buy. In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Dr. Joshua Bandoch, author of How to Get What You Want. Ready? Let’s get started.

Announcer: You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here’s your host, Melina Palmer.

The Art and Science of Persuasion

Melina Palmer: Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast. Have you ever noticed how the most influential people in your life rarely seem like they’re trying to persuade you? There’s something almost invisible about what they do. And while many people are intuitively good at this, there is a science to it for those who don’t get there as naturally and for those who want to get better. My guest today is Dr. Joshua Bandoch, author of the new book, How to Get What You Want: Mastering the Art and Science of Persuasion. One of the things I really like about his perspective is that, as you’re going to hear in our conversation, he’s all about the reframe that getting what you want comes from first understanding others and giving them what they want. Those longtime listeners will know that reciprocity is one of my favorite concepts in behavioral science as well as framing. So anything that aligns with my approach to the long-term game of business by investing in generous framing where more people win, it’s going to be a great fit for the show. And I know you’re going to love this conversation. As you listen today, I encourage you to consider one place in your work or life where you’d really love to be more persuasive. Keep that in the back of your mind so you can be most likely to see ways to start applying these great insights as we go along today. Really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It’s all within the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/582. Now let’s jump right in. Dr. Joshua Bandoch, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.

Joshua Bandoch: Melina, thank you. It’s a real pleasure to be here.

Melina Palmer: Yes, I’m so excited to have you here. So the world knows it doesn’t really matter. This is a take two. We had a weird tech deal, you know, 30 minutes into a conversation last time. And, you know, the world has decided that we’re going to have a fresh new conversation today. And that was just a practice run, but, you know, I’m excited I got to talk to you twice now. So I’m living my best life.

Joshua Bandoch: It was already the start of a great conversation, and now we’re ready to just take that to the next level. So your listeners are in for a treat, I can assure them, for sure.

Melina Palmer: So for everyone who doesn’t yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

Joshua Bandoch: The short version is that I’m an author of a new book on persuasion called How to Get What You Want: Mastering the Art and Science of Persuasion. I’m a TEDx speaker. You can find it on YouTube and anywhere. I’m a policy advocate. The thing that I care most about most in life is empowering people to unleash their potential, whether it’s through my policy work or that’s actually what the persuasion work is about too. So I’m happy to dive into any of those things. I also used to be a speechwriter for a number of high-level government officials. Have worn a couple of other hats. Former academic, former fundraiser. So done a lot of things that require a lot of persuasion.

What True Persuasion Means

Melina Palmer: Yeah, well, and, you know, big fan of persuasion and influence and things. We were talking a bit about Cialdini, you know, as we were getting ready to get started here today. And as you think about in that idea of, like, how to get what you want and talking about pitching today, these days feels like all of our lives are nothing but like a constant stream of pitches, I guess. Like getting people to listen to the show or to check out this email or to listen to me while I’m talking or buy my book or whatever, those things are to much bigger and, you know, important things too. What’s the kind of a main thing is when you think about how to get what you want, like, what does that mean to you? I know there’s like a title you end up with, and then there’s like, the ethos behind it. Like, what does that mean to you?

Joshua Bandoch: The difference between having a good idea—we all have good ideas—and having others embrace it is persuasion. And persuasion is something we do every single day in every single interaction, professional and personal. So what is persuasion? Well, it helps to think about what it’s not. It’s not about winning. Because if I win against you, Melina, what does that make you? Yeah, the loser. And nobody wants to feel like a loser, all right? That’s no good. And it’s not about convincing someone to think like you, which is a big mistake people make, because the Latin root of the word convince actually means to vanquish or to conquer. And conquest is barbaric. It’s not persuasive. Persuasion is actually shared action. It’s shared because it’s something that we volunteer to do with others, and it’s actually because it’s about getting things done. And I think where a lot of the marketing and grabbing people’s attention go wrong is that they don’t have a good enough grasp of the neuroscience and the psychology of persuasion, which I know is of lots of interest to your listeners and is paramount throughout my book. And I think by understanding those things, whether you’re trying to negotiate a deal, marketing a product, whatever it is, or anything else, just trying to get something from a customer service agent, if you understand how the brain works and how to navigate those realities, then you can get what you want time after time after time.

Overcoming Negativity Bias

Melina Palmer: Yeah. And in a way that becomes that kind of win-win-win-win-win. Right. One of the things I love about, you know, the book is you really focus on the positive side of these things, which, I have. We’re wired with something called negativity bias, which makes sense. As I read, I’m making all sorts of notes, and I have one here that says negativity makes you dumber. Can you tell us about that? Which, I mean, I guess it feels like all we see on social media, like the algorithms are being so fed by the negativity bias of… I wish rage bait would go away. Can it not exist, please? But you know, what would you say about kind of that negativity bias and, you know, advocating against it, maybe in some ways.

Joshua Bandoch: Yeah, it does. So we can come back to this or not. We think that persuasion starts with logic. It doesn’t. It starts with feelings. More on that later. Or not. Why say that? Because then the question is, well, what kinds of feelings? And if you look all around, go right now to the Fox News homepage or the MSNBC homepage. I did this when I was writing the chapter that we’re about to talk about. And the answer is crystal clear. What kind of feelings are persuasive? It’s negative feelings, right? And there were about 200 articles on those homepages, and I found one positive article. And this makes sense because we’re wired with something called negativity bias. You did a whole episode, which is a really good episode. I encourage your listeners to just go back into that for a deep dive. We’re wired to focus on, be attentive to negative things, which makes sense, because threats are negative. So we’re attuned to them and it helps us survive. When you think of some of the most persuasive Americans, who come to mind? And I would ask you, kick it over to you a question. When you think of some of the most persuasive Americans of the last hundred years, who are some of the people who come to mind?

Melina Palmer: Yeah. I know for me, Oprah is someone I would say is, you know, persuasive and engaging in a lot of ways. Got to go Obama, of course, being a great one. Kennedy, JFK Kennedy in that. And, yeah, I mean, there’s so many amazing things.

Joshua Bandoch: Would I offend you if I added Martin Luther King Jr. And Ronald Reagan to that list?

Melina Palmer: Not at all. I would never be offended.

Joshua Bandoch: So you and… Okay, so this is the thing that we know intuitively who’s persuasive. And it’s because of what they do. They’re happy warriors, and they generate positive feelings. How did JFK do that? He said, “Ask not…” Nobody ever says Walter Mondale. Martin Luther King Jr. Had a dream; no one ever says Malcolm X. Ronald Reagan saw America as a shining city upon a hill; nobody ever says Barry Goldwater. Barack Obama talked about the power of hope and change; nobody ever says Al Gore. Oprah is a phenomenal example because we don’t only have to talk politicians. Oh, my God, what a bundle of positivity. She has a great book with Arthur Brooks, who is, you know, he’s a policy advocate and a professor. Also a bundle of positivity, as a runaway bestseller. So positive feelings are persuasive. And how do you do that? You have to be for something. So my policy work that I do, one of the hats that I wear, focuses on expanding opportunities. So I’m for things like dignity through work and opportunity and personal thriving and independence and all these sorts of things. I’m for those things. So we know that negativity is like… I mean, it’s no fun. And there’s a reason. There’s a Pew survey from a couple of years ago, 79% of respondents had a negative view of American politics. And one of the most… So this is a word cloud. One of the most popular responses that Pew got was “dumpster fire.” And no one likes… And no one likes that our politics is a dumpster fire. And it’s a dumpster fire because of all the negativity. And to go back to where you started, all the social media, TikTok, and that kind of stuff, I mean, it is like, it puts front and center right in front of us, all the negative stuff, and then we’re like, oh, my God, we get so angry. And then the next one and the next one and the next one, and nobody actually wants things to operate that way.

Adopting the Persuader’s Mindset

Melina Palmer: Yeah, right. I love this. And to the point that, you know, you’re making here, it’s like that… It’s kind of that, like, negativity bias pieces. It’s good for that momentary quick engagement and that, like, you know, the hit in the brain that you’re getting, right? Of that, like, where people will say, like, well, I’ll go ahead and post this. I’ll say the thing because it’s good for the algorithm because some troll’s gonna comment or a slew of trolls will come comment. And the engagement scores are good for me as, you know, someone sharing content. Man, I hate that. But then you think about the bigger picture of those… Those moments, those speeches, the, like, things that change the world. Right? Like, how much of that… And while, you know, when I think of JFK, one of the big speeches, like, for me, in that is actually in and relevant in the time that we’re talking of, you know, in that aspect with NASA, of like, we’re going to go to the moon by the end of the decade. Not because it’s easy, but because it is hard. Right? Like, absolutely. That, like, thing that you just are, like, fired up when you feel it. Right? Like, you… There’s like, I get it. It’s clear. We know why we’re doing it. We have a deadline of a thing. We understand that it is going to be challenging, but we infuse that in the conversation and he… They could have… I’ll say “they,” right? Like, I’m sure his speechwriters had them too, right? That went through and helped in that process. It’s like you could have said so many things and you could have gotten hung up in the details of the logistics. Like, you could talk about how hard it’s going to be in a way that would really turn a lot of people off and not make them interested in, you know, what’s happening there. But, like, as you think about whether it’s that speech or any other, like, how do you help dial down, like, find… It’s like you have to think about all the things you could say to find the one thing that’s gonna like, mean everything. Right. Well, how do you think about going about that process?

Joshua Bandoch: Let’s kind of take a funnel, we’ll sort of… Ideally you can just say that, that one thing or those couple of things and you’ve got them, boom. They want to share action with you now. And time after time after time. Really big funnel is start by adopting what I call the persuader’s mindset, which is the first wiring problem that we face. So, had an intern a couple of summers ago, John. John, nice kid, smart kid, goes to a good school. And John thought that the best way to showcase how smart he is is to wave his hand, talk a lot, say, “me, me, me, call on me,” someone else is talking, interrupt them, interrupt me—the manager. Probably not a good idea. First couple of weeks did that. I was like, eh, ah. So took John aside, said, “you know, I’m not sure, like this whole interrupting and like doing the me-first thing is a great way to proceed.” And he was like, “oh.” Now, it aligns with our wiring because we love to talk about ourselves. It feels really good. And that’s how John was taught. It was reinforced in school, right? The teachers called on him. Yeah, good job. So that’s what we’re taught. The trouble is that the me-first mindset is an anti-persuasion tactic. Because when I make it all about me and I’m talking to you, how do you feel?

Melina Palmer: Unimportant. Like you don’t care. Bored, at best.

Joshua Bandoch: At best those things. You could feel deeply offended, particularly if you come to me and you’re like, “I got this really serious problem.” And so actually, in fact, this is what happened to John. You know, he started to turn things around. And he went from me-first John, John, John, to putting the team first. One day I just laughed because he came and he said, “you’ll never guess what happened last night.” I said, “what’s that?” And he said, “I was talking to my girlfriend last night and she started telling me about a problem with her internship. And I just started talking and she got really annoyed. She said, ‘why can’t you just listen?’” And he was like, “oh, doing it again.” So he listened, started to ask some questions, felt reconnected with her, started asking questions that kind of pointed them towards the solution. And that was a much better approach. And by the end of the summer, John was outperforming all the other interns because he put the team first and we kept him on and gave him a promotion. So the persuader’s mindset requires you to put them first. I say this because you have to come to every speech with that mindset. I once wrote speeches for a person… In the meetings, this person would always say, “what do we need to tell them?” And that’s exactly backwards. It’s, “what do they need to hear from us?” How do you do that? You have to understand your audience. There’s this thing called the internet, right? Social media, like websites, mission, vision, who they are, what they care about. You talk to the organizers. What are the priorities of your organization? What are your values? What do you care about? And if you understand those things and you can authentically appeal to them while also advocating for the things that you care about, the connection that forms—in large part because you’re proceeding with a tremendous amount of emotional intelligence—is so powerful. So great speeches are written for individual audiences, even if it’s only 10% individualized, and then 90% the same kinds of things that you say to many audiences. Because, say, you’re out advocating for a particular thing. You know, take a politician, right? You could be advocating for whatever it is. Pick your issue. I won’t pick one that I get too spicy here. But whatever it is, right, you’re talking to lots of audiences. You still need to frame it for them. So that’s the big part of the funnel. Okay, then what’s next? Well, you got to start with feelings. How do they feel about something? How are they feeling in the moment? And how do you generate persuasive feelings? Your audience will hate this much less than most audiences that I talk to about this. This is how the brain’s wired. We’re wired to feel first, then reason. Sometimes it’s feel, but reason. Sometimes it’s feel, then reason. Sometimes it’s feel and we never get the reasoning. And this is just the cognitive reality of all 8 billion people. So the logic-first approach to persuasion, especially to persuading your audience, doesn’t work. So what do you want them to feel? How do you generate those feelings? Well, you have to be for something. Okay. Then you have to appeal to their values. I ask you, would you force-feed a vegetarian veal?

Melina Palmer: No.

Joshua Bandoch: Would you force-feed somebody who keeps kosher bacon?

Melina Palmer: No. No.

Joshua Bandoch: Those things are deeply offensive. So instead of offending your audience’s values, understand them and authentically appeal to them, which means appeal to their values in a way that also is still authentic to you. Don’t just lie and be inauthentic, but appeal to their values. So serve the vegetarian… If they like salads, serve them a delicious salad or maybe a vegetarian Indian korma dish or whatever they like. Don’t force-feed them veal.

Melina Palmer: Right. Yeah. And I think on the other side of that too is we also don’t have to give the, you know, steak lovers the… Or, you know, people that like beef, they don’t have to have the quinoa burger, black bean burger.

Joshua Bandoch: Look at that carnivore. Give them a… Give them a… Give them a big old ribeye. That’s fine.

Tailoring Your Message

Melina Palmer: We love that. Good on you for that. So as we think about that, and you know, like we were talking about going into the conversation, I have a background in PR, and it’s a very, you know, similar space with, with that. And you think about the right message for the right person at the right time. And like, what does this person need to hear to do the thing that I’m trying to get them to do, what the next best step is? And like, from a marketing perspective, you know, that is like the thing you’re pitching to the board of directors is different than what the CEO would care about, which is different than what the CFO cares about, which is different than what your team cares about, than what the customer cares about. And like, all those things can be true. But if you try to give everybody all the facts on all the things, that’s not catered to them, you’re not getting anything done, that’s for sure. And so if we know what does this group care about and the right way to present that information—like, who are they? What do I want them to do? What are they doing now? And like, what do I want them to feel like?—you’re able to then find the thread of the story that’s going to help get you to that next point and not have it be just a very long diatribe of words, long it should not be.

Joshua Bandoch: There’s a reason why TED Talks are limited to 18 minutes. And if you go and watch Ronald Reagan speeches, for example, they… Like, they did not go over 20 minutes for a reason. I’m sure this is true of other folks as well; I just know that one for sure. It’s because you don’t need 50, 100 minutes to say something, and people, they… They lose focus. So you have to be laser-focused on your audience and keeping their attention. So I think a couple of things. One is, tell stories, and preferably if you can connect those stories to your audience. So, like, if you’re a CEO, you might be addressing, you know, like 5,000 people in your organization, right? This is like the national event. You know, you have a whole convention center packed, the room is full, and you can still tell stories celebrating things that people on the team have done. It doesn’t have to be the executive vice president. Celebrate things from people, you know, at the sort of lower ranks of the hierarchy. Celebrate those things. Tell about what John or Susie or Maria or whoever… Tell stories about what they did. That’s so powerful because you’re putting the team first. And when you do that, be for something. When people come out and they are for whatever it is… In my case, it’s opportunity and independence and like, you know, dignity through work. I mean, is that going to be aversive to people? So when you’re for things, you know, then it is much less likely that you’re going to say things that are aversive as opposed to if I’m like, oh, this is bad and that’s bad, and this is bad and that’s bad. So one way to appeal to a broad audience is to avoid saying things that some of them are going to experience negatively, and that that’s going to create a barrier to them acting with you. So, understand their values, appeal to those values, and think about where those overlap. You know, if you’re at a corporation, 500 or 1,000 people in your audience, you still know that there are going to be some overlapping values because they all work at your organization and they all care about certain things. Like, even if it’s, say, a tech company, maybe they all really care about progress in these certain fields and what that means and why what they’re doing is so important. So give them a vision for your company and for what you all can accomplish together. Because vision animates action. So you’re giving them all these things that will positively motivate them while not kind of upsetting people in the crowd. Because you get one person excited and one person upset, you know, it’s basically, you know, you haven’t got anywhere.

Melina Palmer: Yeah, they’re like, why’d you even show up today? Right? And actually, that upset person is very possibly these days, like, recording you and gonna find a lot more upset people.

Joshua Bandoch: Totally. They are gonna… Well, because, look, I mean, human beings have these funny things called memories and…

Melina Palmer: Ooh.

Joshua Bandoch: You know, and when somebody offends you or upsets you, you remember it for good reason because that presents a threat to you. And if somebody can present a threat to you once, they can probably present a threat to you again. So it’s like… I mean, the negativity feels good, the criticizing things feels good, and it ends up creating additional threats that are simply unnecessary. Yeah, so those are kind of like the, the big picture meta things to look out for when you’re crafting speeches in front of audiences.

What Qualifies as a Speech?

Melina Palmer: And knowing as, you know, for the listener here, when we’re saying speech… Speech is in a sense just spoken words to another person, right? That maybe you’re actually giving a speech like you say as CEO of a company or something or… But it could be if you’re… If you do talks like I do a lot of keynotes or, you know, consulting and things. But it can also be you’re pitching to get funding for, for… Maybe it’s like VCs. You’re pitching for funding. Maybe it’s just to get budget or a team member or to something that you hope the group’s gonna do to pick your project over something else inside of an organization. You know, like we’re… We’re telling speeches to get our kids to take out the trash too, right? Like there’s all sorts of things.

Joshua Bandoch: Well, I mean 100%. I mean speech is in a sense just spoken words to another person. Speeches don’t have to be like JFK and Ronald Reagan given in Berlin, right? Okay. Well, no, you know, or it doesn’t have to be on the international stage. It can be, even if you think small or so professional, it could be that you’re giving a presentation to the board. Maybe you only work at a 50-person organization, but you’re talking to the board. So that’s still a speech because you’re giving a presentation. Could be that, you know, maybe your… Your kids… Maybe one of your kids is maybe adopting some behaviors that aren’t so good and you need to have a heart-to-heart with, with him or her and there is a kind of speech involved there. You know, sometimes those are short speeches. They don’t have to be 5, 10, 20 minutes. Might only be a minute or two. And you’re always thinking about how to get what you want. How do you do that? Well, you have to… You have to make a choice. You have to decide, through… In every single interaction with people, do I want to be right or do I want to make a difference? Being right is really easy, right? Those speeches write themselves. I’m right and you’re wrong, and here’s why. Has that ever persuaded you of anything?

Melina Palmer: Yeah.

Joshua Bandoch: No, 100% real. And if you want to make a difference, you start not with IQ, but with emotional intelligence. You start there, you continue there, and you end there.

Melina Palmer: Yep, absolutely.

Identifying and Removing Barriers

Melina Palmer: One of the other things, you know, in going through the book, like, there are so many things I could lean into here, but let’s say, so I do the prep. I think about what I think they’re going to care about. I’m for something that I think they’re going to be on board with, and they say no. Is it over? Is it done? That’s the end of things? Or does it have to be? I guess, no.

Joshua Bandoch: No. And so, first of all, one of the biggest things I’ve learned about persuasion is that it’s much less about getting somebody to do something and much more about identifying barriers, understanding why they’re not already doing it, because there’s something stopping them. They just don’t care, they don’t have the money, they’re too busy, they have doubts, whatever. So when you get to a no, that’s actually not a bad thing if you can identify the barrier and then you can remove it. So if you’re like, “well, how do you feel about this?” They’re like, “you know, not so sure,” they’re leaning against it. Then you ask them, you say, “what would stop you from moving forward?” You’re actually inviting them to give you the current no. Because if you don’t know (K-N-O-W) what the no (N-O) is, then you can’t remove it. It just sits there. And I do recommend starting with the feeling question, because since we feel first, those are really just quick, intuitive responses to things. How do you feel about this? Oh, it’s amazing. Or, I don’t know. What’s the hesitation? Identify it, remove it simply by calling it out. That’s really powerful. And then you engage it with emotional intelligence. Suppose that you want somebody to buy something. You’re selling whatever it is, toothpaste or, you know, web services, something. I don’t know. Pick whatever you’re selling and say, okay, well, what would stop you? If I just lean in and tell you, “well, Melina, you should love this product,” because that isn’t even vaguely tailored to you. If I understand what would stop you, then you could say something like, “well, I just… You know, we’re currently using this other product, and I’m like a little scared to move to a new product.” Okay, well, let me understand your needs, and let me show you how my product can meet your needs better than this other product. Or you say, “look, I want to move over. It’s just we just signed a contract for the next 12 months and I like what you’re doing. So, I’d like to plan, you know, maybe a nine months meeting and talking about how we can transition over.” Okay, cool. Or they might say, “look, I don’t have the money right now. There are other priorities. But if we get this grant, if this big investment comes in, we’ll totally do it.” Those are all different conversations. So you want to actually invite the no. And no is powerful insofar as when you try to corner somebody into saying yes, they’re usually not even real yeses. So if you understand why somebody is currently a no, then you can address it. So, part of persuasion is also knowing when a deal is impossible because time is your most valuable resource. You don’t want to waste time or money when truly somebody isn’t going to give you what you want.

Melina Palmer: Right? Yeah, like use… Invest… We all have a finite amount of time, right? Invest it in the person that there is an overcomable barrier, I guess in that way. Like there are some people that are never going to be your customer, your client. You’re not going to get the budget, you’re not going to get the job, you’re not going to get the thing no matter what. And like, just know that and move along—the bless and release, right? Don’t waste days and weeks going after somebody. Find that out quickly, that’s okay, and move on to the next thing. And you can work on those that are, you know, convertible, as that works. Yeah.

Joshua Bandoch: It’s just, why get to that really quickly? Don’t waste days and weeks and months going after somebody. If you ask them, “look, I mean, how do you feel about this idea?” And they say, “look, I just… This isn’t going to work for me.” And you say, “what would stop you from moving forward?” And then they say, “look, I’m not moving forward. I am fully committed to this other vendor. It’s a… I’ve had… I’ve had a long-term relationship with them, I love the product, the price is good, like, leave me alone.” Better to find that out quickly than to waste weeks and months calling them, annoying them—that’s no good. Find that out quickly, that’s okay too. Move on to somebody else who might be a great fit for your product.

Melina Palmer: Right. And I think there’s the lesson on the other side of this as well. So, I used to run a marketing department at a company, and like even now with the podcast and stuff, I get pitched stuff all the time. I’m constantly being pitched things. And I used to tell people because… And everybody wants to do their pitch their way, right? To say, “well, no, I want to schedule time to come back and sit down in front of you and talk to you for an hour and walk you through the thing.” It’s like, I get it. I know you want to do the thing. I can’t. I cannot do that. I need you to please send me the document. I will look it over. I promise I will give it the time. I will follow up with questions, and if it’s a no, I will tell you, right? I will let you know. And people would say, “oh, my gosh, thank you so much. No one ever tells us no.” And it’s like everybody’s ghosting people and you’re in this weird limbo that’s terrible all the time. And so more often than not, people just get busy, right? And they forget. And it is good to follow up. And the person who’s more persistent, you know, and you stay top of mind and you ask, it pays off more often than it doesn’t. It’s great. But if people could actually just tell people no more often, or share why, right? And in that same way, I had a vendor, too, that he insisted on calling me with updates for things and would leave me voicemails that would get buried. And I had said, “hey, like, I like working with you. You know, good products. We’re getting stuff. Like, if you cannot send me an email, I have to go to someone else because I need to give stuff to the team.” And like, you know, we got it fixed too. So again, his preferred style was calling me on the phone and whatever else that worked for him; that doesn’t work for me. And so you gotta adjust sometimes if you want whatever that deal happens to be, make it about them. It’s not for you, right?

Joshua Bandoch: Put them first. And I would just add two things to that, which is do your homework beforehand. Because if some… If someone comes and pitches you and you’re like, “this is obviously not a fit,” and it’s actually annoying because it’s obviously not a fit, then you’re not even going to respond to them. You’re going to say, “no, go away.” And if, by contrast, something is like only maybe a fit and somebody pitches you really well on it, they’ve really understood you and who you are and what you care about and what you need and how what they’re offering aligns with your needs… That is so powerful. It’s so powerful. When you do that homework, you also might realize, “no, no, this really isn’t a fit. I’m not going to waste my time pitching this person on this.” So do that homework ahead of time. That’s what we did for speeches, too, because then the audience can feel like you are talking to them in part, because you are. And then, you know, when you actually get to that, okay, someone’s responded, you have to understand them. So you’re the kind of person who needs the email, you need the time, you need to look at it. In fact, if I can say, you know, when I pitched you on the podcast, you said, “send me the manuscript.” You needed to see it. That makes perfect sense. You need to look at it. Of course. So it’s great. Cool. And if I’m like, “well, no, hey, can we just hop on a call?” You’re like, “no.” And I said, “please, this…” And you’re not even listening or respecting what I want. So, that… That’s, like, not effective. So understand the other person and give them things the way that they need it. Unless you like it when people force their way on you when it’s not your way.

Melina Palmer: Right. And I know there are plenty of podcasts where it would be, “fill… You know, actually fill out the form,” or like, “yes, we have to have a conversation and get your pitch ready.” And, you know, more people than not don’t read the book. I’m one of the unique people that actually reads all the books before I have people on, you know, and talk… Be able to talk about it. But, you know, that’s not every way that everybody does it, and that’s okay. So you want to know… You don’t want to start by just… Also, don’t just, like, mail everybody your book with no information or whatever.

Joshua Bandoch: Right.

Melina Palmer: Like, there’s all sorts of ways to understand how that works.

Joshua Bandoch: Just, like, mail it, little post-it on front, “call me,” phone number… Like, what? That’s weird. You want to understand people and frame things in their terms, because that’s how you get what you want. You put them first.

Melina Palmer: Yes. And as we close out—and we know I could talk to you… We will continue talking beyond this.

The Importance of Tone

Melina Palmer: But, like, in the… As we close our time today, what am I… Very, very, very favorite lines in the book… And I’m going to be paraphrasing, so it might not be perfect, but when I’ve already, like, said to… I told to my husband, he also loves this… Might be… It’s like a favorite quote of… I don’t know if it’s like the year from the book, but like, I really, really enjoy it. Says essentially when someone doesn’t like your tone, it is your problem and it’s your fault. It is one of my very favorite things. Can you expand?

Joshua Bandoch: Which just big picture is empowering because if we look at situations and we’re like, “well, I don’t have much control over this,” that stinks. And part of what this book is about is that so much is in your control. And if you adopt the right strategies and the right techniques, you can crash through the glass ceiling that you’re hitting up against and rise so many levels. Let’s focus on tone. Why is tone so important? The chapter that you’re talking about is called “Go Beyond Words.” And sometimes as little as 7% of how we experience somebody, our verbal liking of them, is the words that they say. So sure, words matter. You can think of some words that are deeply offensive—they matter. Or words that just, like, they just touch your being in a way that is so powerful. Fine. And think about the same words delivered in two ways. I could say, “Melina, that is a great idea.” Okay, cool. I’m excited. If I say, “Melina, that’s a great idea…” And if I want to really emphasize it, since we’re on video here, I could roll my eyes. “That’s a great idea.” What I’ve done is I’ve adopted a tone and body language that is contemptuous, and that is the… That could not be less persuasive. It is deeply offensive to your audience. And it reminds us that there are so many undercurrents that we can control. Even when you’re frustrated, if you can breathe and like, bring a calm tone to a situation, at least you’re not going to escalate things and you’re going to probably, probably calm things down. Adopt good body language, do all of these things that I talk about in the book—be for something, tell stories, understand how they’re feeling, all that kind of stuff, and when you do those things time and time again, your batting average essentially goes way up.

Melina Palmer: Love it. Perfect. Well, for everyone who is now so excited to follow you and to get their copy of the book and to learn more, all the things, what are the best paths for them to do that?

Joshua Bandoch: The book is available anywhere you can buy books—Amazon, Barnes & Noble, whatever. Available in hardcover and audio. And you can find me on LinkedIn, happy to connect, or go to my website joshuabandoch.com. You can find me there, learn more about what I do. So those are the best ways to find me or to reach out to me.

Melina Palmer: Wonderful. We will of course have links in the show notes to make it easy for everyone, but always great to hear that. And thank you again so much, Josh, for joining me on the show today. It was really delightful to chat with you.

Joshua Bandoch: Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity. Conversation a lot.

Behind the Scenes of a Medal of Honor Speech

Melina Palmer: Melina, thank you again to Joshua Bandoch for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today’s conversation? For me, as I said in the intro, my favorite aspect is the shift from “what do we need to say?” To “what do they need to hear?” Our brains are wired to look at things from our own perspective, so it’s natural to start with, “what do I need to say to get what I want?” But because people also naturally look at things from their own perspective, those who can shift into the other’s mindset are more likely to be persuasive and get what they want while also helping others get what they want, which is awesome. There are so many great examples throughout the book, way more than could have been shared in today’s conversation. One that really stood out to me was an example he gave about a speech that he wrote for the Air Force Secretary for a Medal of Honor ceremony for Master Sergeant John Chapman, a soldier who gave his life in Afghanistan in 2002. There was a lot of pressure to get it right, as Chapman was one of less than 20 airmen to ever receive the honor, and the first since Vietnam. And there were multiple stakeholders in the audience. Josh explained his process really well in the book. So I’m just going to read an excerpt from the story for you here because might as well use his words in talking about it, since we didn’t get to it in our conversation. So he says: “As I began conceptualizing the speech, I analyzed the audience’s moral tastes. The multiple audiences—Chapman’s family, the Air Force, America’s armed forces—shared sensitivity to some tastes. The most obvious was loyalty, since it usually drives the choice to serve one’s nation. We needed to appeal to their love of America. They’re probably also sensitive to freedom, since the desire to protect America’s freedoms is one reason people wear a uniform. There are undercurrents of care in Chapman’s story, care for his nation generally and for the lost soldier he returned to find, Neil Roberts. Chapman was widely viewed as a standout soldier, so we could tap into proportionality. Authority, purity, and equality didn’t really factor into the story, so I left them out. Then I used the EIPM. Since the speaker… Step one, observe how you want your audience to feel… Was the secretary, I had to consider things from her perspective. She was a mixture of excited and anxious. Excited to honor Chapman and about the opportunity; anxious because there was a lot of pressure to hit a home run. The audience… Still step one… Mainly had feelings of excitement and sadness. Excited to celebrate Chapman in the Air Force and sad because Chapman died in combat and is sorely missed. The secretary was… Still step one… Well-liked across the Air Force, so she was an excellent person to deliver the final speech at the event. Shared goals… Step two, identify shared goals… Were to celebrate Chapman’s courage and sacrifice and put the courage of airmen on par with that of services like the Army and Marines, which engaged in more on-the-ground combat. The feelings necessary to achieve this… Step three, facilitate feelings necessary to share action… Were mainly a combination of enjoyment, love, and trust. The speech facilitated those feelings… Step three… Remarkably well, and shared action followed… Step four, share action. I needed an unexpected framing to capture the audience’s attention. Thinking primarily in terms of loyalty, my mind kept turning to a familiar song: The Star-Spangled Banner. Specifically the powerful words at the end of the first stanza: ‘O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave / O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?’ At sporting events, Americans sing that line with an exclamation point. There’s a problem with that. It’s actually punctuated with a question mark. Reason being, when Francis Scott Key wrote it in 1814, it wasn’t a foregone conclusion that America would remain free given the ongoing War of 1812. There it was. By making the statement a question, we could wrap the whole speech in a song that resonates far and wide. This also provided a plot: Chapman’s story is America’s story. Our nation continues to exist only because brave people like Chapman fight to keep us free.” Josh goes on to share more about the specific recommendations and excerpts from the speech itself, and also a link so you can watch it if you want to see how it turned out. For me, I was fascinated by seeing this process and considering how many ideas and options and directions he would have needed to sift through and tease out to get to the core of this line in the Star Spangled Banner to be that central theme of the entire talk and really not even the whole sentence, but that single change in punctuation and what it can mean, both as a reminder of this history of the country, but also to these people in this moment. And as you’ll see when you read about it or watch the video, the speech started by acknowledging that they had just heard the anthem. And it sounds like a statement, but knowing it’s a question changes everything. It feels so obvious in hindsight, but you know, it was anything but. Taking the time to consider and evaluate and use the steps that Joshua has in his book, which you got a little sneak peek of when I read that excerpt, makes it so you can use these same techniques in your own work. While you likely won’t be giving a Medal of Honor speech, these techniques can be used in all sorts of business applications, from pitch meetings and website copy to ads and social posts and articles you write, and so much more. And the big lesson is that you should definitely invest more time in being thoughtful about who’s in the room, what they’re doing now, what you want them to do, how will they be different at the end of having experienced whatever they’re encountering with that you’re working on right now in this moment? And what are those traditional and untraditional things you might be able to share that can help to make the point you’re looking to make that’s going to help them to get what they want and what they need to hear so you can get what you want. So much of what we’ve been talking about all through the episode here today and now I’m curious, where are you going to use these techniques first? Where would it help you most to be more persuasive? Whatever it is, come share it with me on social media. You’re going to find me as the brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy, as well as links to my top related past episodes and books, including How to Get What You Want, ways to get in touch, and more. It’s all waiting for you in the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/582. And thank you again to Dr. Joshua Bandoch for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business podcast. It’s going to be a lot of fun. You don’t want to miss it. Until then, thank you. Thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.

Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.