Introduction: The Psychology of Nature
Announcer: You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here’s your host, Melina Palmer.
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 583 of the Brainy Business, Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Dr. Jay Maddock of Texas A&M University. Ready? Let’s get started.
The Measurable Impact of the Outdoors
Melina Palmer: Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer, and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Do you have a favorite place? You know, somewhere that just feels right, where your brain quiets down and everything seems just a little more okay? I want you to have a vision of it in your mind. Now, I’m gonna guess it’s probably somewhere outside, maybe the beach, a trail through the woods, a garden, or even just a quiet park nearby. It turns out that feeling isn’t just in your head. Well, I mean, it is, but in a very real, measurable and physiological way. Nature does something specific to us. And today’s episode is all about what that means, why it matters, and what we can do about it.
This refreshed episode originally aired back in 2022, right when the back to work conversations were just starting to heat up after Covid. And while I wish I could tell you we’d figured all that out by now, it continues to be a big topic for companies. Burnout is higher than ever. The tension around where and how people work has only intensified, and this conversation feels just as much, if not more, relevant today than it did then.
My guest today to share about the brainy benefits of nature is Dr. Jay Maddock. He’s a professor in the Department of Environmental and Occupational Health at the School of Public Health at Texas A&M University and co-director of the Center for Health and Nature. He and his team study what nature actually does to our health in a measurable, physiological way, and how we can bring more of those benefits into everyday life, including into the workplace. As you listen, think about the environments where you and your team spend most of your time. And as you hear the tips and insights, consider whether those spaces are working for your brains or against them.
Really quickly. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It’s all within the app you’re listening to and at the brainybusiness.com/583. Now let’s jump right in.
Dr. Jay Maddock, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
Jay Maddock: Thank you. Delighted to be here.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And, as I said in our little intro section here to the episode, I met you like 10 minutes ago here at the lab, but was hearing a little bit about what you were working on and realized we definitely had to have a more formal conversation and everybody needed to hear it. So I will definitely be learning along with our audience here. But if you can tell a little bit about your background and who you are and what you do.
Jay Maddock: Sure. Thank you so much. Really appreciate being here today. My PhD is in experimental psychology. I went to the University of Rhode Island back in the 1990s, and at the time we were really looking at developing expert systems for health behavior change. So based on theoretical models, like the social cognitive theory or transtheoretical model, how do we change people’s behavior? And, from there, got into public health at the University of Hawaii, and so have been doing that and then recently at Texas A&M for the last seven years, mostly working now in how do we get people into nature and natural environments and what the health and healing effects of those environments are?
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And we definitely have, I know a lot of people that listen to the show that are interested in behavioral nudges in that way and so being able to help people to make healthier, better choices. And we also end up talking a lot about stress and cognitive load, and as there’s a, you know, great resignation and people looking for something different or better, you know. And so I think there’s a lot of learning, definitely, that you’ll be able to share today, and knowing not everybody is working in a corporate space, but we have people in public policy and all sorts that are listening from around the world. So tell a little bit about just some of the research that you’re doing. That’s really interesting. I know you were talking about some cool stuff with VR that you’re going to be doing here soon.
Dosing Nature and Combating Burnout
Jay Maddock: Yeah. So we’re really looking at how natural environments change health. And so what’s really interesting is we’ve had all our traditional health promotion recommendations for decades. Right. Eat healthy diet, be physically active, don’t smoke. And since I’ve been in the field in the mid-90s, we really haven’t had anything new come out. And that’s what’s neat. And I’ve gotten into this area of, wow, spending time in nature really changes your health. But it’s a lot like where physical activity was in the 90s, where we knew it’s good for you, but we didn’t know how much and when and where and for whom. And so a lot of what we’re trying to understand now is what is the appropriate dose of nature and then how can we use some of the theoretical models to get more people into nature?
And so, for example, one study that we’re looking at right now is healthcare workers, right? So we know with the pandemic, we’ve seen such huge burnout in healthcare workers. And so we’re taking doctors and nurses in the ICU and the emergency room, and we’re taking them out for a long weekend in nature, bringing something called forest bathing, which pretty much is mindfulness in nature. We’ll take people out and really experience their senses. You know, put your phones away, feel the wind on your face, look at the blade of grass, really, you know, become fully engaged in this. And then bring them back into their healthcare setting. And we’re gonna measure cortisol, heart rate variability, blood pressure, and then some of the burnout scales to see if we can actually reduce levels of burnout in these people.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, and then to compare with maybe some virtual stuff like you were talking about how, you know, that nature has impacts on, like you were just saying, blood pressure and stress and things like that, but then not knowing exactly what aspects of nature it is. So can you share a little bit about maybe how you’re thinking about looking at this in the lab?
Simulating Nature in the Workplace and Lab
Jay Maddock: Yeah, you know, it’s neat. It’s, you know, we have our five senses and which ones are important. So one of the earliest studies was actually a faculty member here, Roger Ulrich was at Texas A&M, and he looked at hospital rooms and patients either had a view of nature out their window or a view of a parking lot. And he compared them and the ones with the nature view had less post-op complications, less pain, and were released earlier than those with a view of the parking lot. So that was, wow, that’s just sight, right? And so you’re like, okay, so that’s just a piece of nature. And so what’s cool about virtual reality is it lets us break the senses up. I can do a study where you just have sight or you just have sound or you just have smell, or even if we have a breeze blowing on you. Right. I can control the senses. We hopefully don’t do too much tasting of nature, but the rest of them, for sure. And then we can look at what combination is important and what are the actual physiological effects on people’s health.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And then that could translate for business or in a healthcare system of being able to just… even the extension of what you were just talking about, making sure that patient rooms have whatever the aspects are. Is it the sound of birds chirping being something that’s helpful while someone’s recovering or, you know.
Jay Maddock: Yeah. Trying to figure out what in nature we need. I mean, we know when people are in a hospital room or even when we’re at work all day, we really can’t send them out to spend time in nature too much. And so how do we… what’s the essential pieces? And certainly when people are working more and more in cubicles, they don’t have window views. You know, how can we change that? There’s a theory called attention restoration theory, which pretty much says that you go throughout the day and you wear down your attention. I think we’ve all felt that in the afternoon. And so they took a group of people out and had them walk in nature for 15 minutes and then come back. And what they found is they got full attention restoration rather than spending the time in a break room having a cup of coffee. If we can get people into natural environments that businesses can create, green spaces that are nearby nature, we might have a lot more productive workforce, kind of that late in the day, just with that recharge of nature.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And so I know we were talking too about, you know, maybe there’s the beach room, like so for me, if I like to go to the beach, but someone else likes to be in the woods, or you want to experience the rainforest room, or, you know, whatever that might be. But you could have it all be if it is through a virtual reality aspect that you could sort of choose your experience and go kind of be immersed in the space.
Jay Maddock: People like different types of nature, and I think that’s one thing that there’s not been a lot of research on is how do we match people to the natural environment that they enjoy. And so for myself, I grew up in Rhode Island, I lived in Hawaii. I am an ocean person through and through and living in Central Texas, I don’t get there very often. And so can I dial up my preferred nature through virtual reality? And does that have a more beneficial effect on my health? We believe it will, but we’re going to have to test it in the next year or so.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And so please do also tell about this 360-degree treadmill.
Virtual Reality and the Element of Awe
Jay Maddock: Yeah, so it’s one of the coolest things. It’s a thing called an omnidirectional treadmill. And so what you do is you wear a vest that’s connected to a hook that holds you up so you’re not going to fall. And they’re actually meant for gaming originally, so you can run at full speed, you know, away from monsters. But, we’re hoping that you can walk through a forest or do a mountain hike. And really the idea of virtual reality is presence, right? So the more that we feel that we’re in the environment, the more effect it has on our physiology. And so what we want to do is create an environment that really, really is engaging and connected.
And one of the other theories that’s cool with nature is people have hypothesized that part of the healing effect of nature is awe. Awe, right? And it’s a hard thing to measure, right? But what we want to do in virtual reality is compare what we call high-awe environments. So you go to the Grand Canyon, Grand Teton, you know, some of these amazing things, waterfalls, and we compare that to a simple walk down a wooded path and see is it really the awe that makes the difference or is it just being in a space that’s green and calm? And so there’s so many questions that we can answer through virtual reality that would be difficult to do in person. You know, we can’t send everybody to the Grand Tetons, but we can get them with a headset.
Melina Palmer: Right. With all the equipment hooked up to them and everything that you’re able to learn there. But then, you know, I really love being able to say, well, this type of a sound has this type of an impact. And then as you’re designing rooms into the future, just if we’re thinking about for companies, if they’re wanting to use this to help their employees to have a place to go recharge, we talk about, you know, return to work and the benefits. And people do like to be at home. And so, like, why would I come in to work? But if you get to go and spend some time in this really cool virtual space where you’re able to go experience something new every day, like I’m going to go out to the pyramids today or whatever it is, and you’re actually there. I personally like going to the gym and doing the stair stepper is terrible. It is unpleasant until they have, you know, the one at my gym has had the one where you’re able to say, I’m going to climb to the top of the pyramid at Giza or the Leaning Tower of Pisa or whatever it is. And then it feels more okay, like I’m halfway there, can keep going. Right?
Jay Maddock: You have a goal, right? Goal setting, of course. Right. And I think, yeah, making environments immersive and interesting is important for people and you know, hopefully also igniting their interest in actually being in some of these natural places. You know, I think that always best for us is going to be being in real nature. And to me, VR is an incredible adjunct to that and a way to kind of get folks, especially folks with mobility issues. So, we have a faculty member we work with. He takes care of his sister who was in a car accident, is quadriplegic. This is one of the only ways she can experience nature. And so that’s really important for us, I think, for folks who live in areas that are dangerous, you know, being able to do that.
And then we’ve become really, really interested in the last year or two on the remote worker, right? And so we know that as our workforces are remote, the quality and access to nature is very different, depending on where people live, their income levels, etc. And you know, can we supplement some of that with VR or other things? We’re just launching a study right now just to quantify nature exposure among 2,000 remote workers to say, what do we know? Is this a problem? Is this not a problem? Because if for you were there 10 hours a day, you’re now there 20 in the same setting. That’s magnifying. Any deficiencies we had in our health are now twice as, twice as likely.
Melina Palmer: Right. Even where we feel like, oh, I’m so glad I don’t have my commute anymore because that was such, you know, I’m having to be focused on driving. I have more time to do what I want to do. But even that was a tiny exposure to nature, like from inside your car, you could at least see something that’s different than your couch.
Jay Maddock: And if you live in an urban environment, in an apartment, in a city where there’s not a lot of nearby green space, you might not be getting any green space. And so I think working with businesses, both the in-person and the remote, to say, how can we integrate nature? And what’s beautiful about nature is that it can come in so many different ways. You know, little tips, it can be your screensaver, it can be a plant. And as we talked about, you know, with sight being important, it can be a fake plant. Right. And that seems to still have an effect on people. Right. So if you’re like, oh, I’m going to kill everything, even a fake plant can make a difference.
And so how can we integrate nature into our surroundings and environment is important, with the idea of the kind of micro and macro nature. And so micro is that plant or the screensaver, macro is going to spending the weekend hiking. And they seem to have different effects on our health from kind of immediate stress reduction to more changes in immunofunction. They’ve seen changes in natural killer cell activity, which is our cancer-fighting immune system, for people that spend a long weekend forest bathing. So three nights in the forest, and that made this huge difference. It lasted a month later. So really incredible effects from spending time in nature. But you know, kind of blending the micro and the macro together.
Sustainable Tourism and Conservation
Melina Palmer: I was getting some insights from Dr. Palma on the work that you’re doing, some of it together maybe with the human behavior lab or just that you all have been talking about your work and that you have some stuff that you’re looking at with tourism and sustainability. Is that correct?
Jay Maddock: Yeah. So Dr. Palma and Dr. Suess and myself—and yes, her name is Dr. Suess—have been really looking at the effect of travel and nature. And I think so many times when we get into vacation, we want to go to some beautiful natural spot but we also have an effect on the environment. So we’ve been particularly looking around coral reef protection. Everything from the sunblock that you wear to donation behavior. So we expose people to either a high-fear or low-fear appeal and a high-hope and low-hope. And so we actually just got the data in this week. We haven’t taken a look at it yet. But we really want to see what’s the best way to increase donations to protect coral reefs. We’re seeing bleachings throughout the world and you know, if these go away, then people aren’t going to go to these sites anymore. And so we’ve lost something along with the animal colonies and everything else that survive along the reef.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. Really interesting. I was thinking about it from a business perspective of being able to also earn money and reducing the actual feet on the ground at the place. Right. So there is something if you want people to be able to go for the aspect of the tourism, that’s important for those communities. And, you know, is there something with the virtual reality work that you’re doing where somebody could make a donation to the location if they don’t go in person? So you get to save money, but you experience it and it goes to protect the space. Could be something interesting in the not so distant future.
Jay Maddock: Yeah, I think it’s a great idea. I think there’s places where, you know, we do want to go and experience them directly, and there’s places that we want protected and off-site. So, you know, having lived in Hawaii for so many years, we expect the tourism around the main islands, and the Northwest Hawaiian Islands have been protected as a wildlife refuge, and they certainly should be. But the ability to kind of virtually tour some of those would be really cool because they’re untouched and they’re going to look very different than the ones where there’s, you know, hundreds of tourists a day and unfortunately, you know, stepping on things and picking things up and, you know, affecting the natural environment. I think people would love to see what this looks like when it’s really almost untouched by humans.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And I think there’s definitely a way that that can be done that is helping to then preserve more areas that could be a really good, you know, charitable contribution, gratitude, gifting of the…
Jay Maddock: …you know, all that stuff. Yeah. Because I think that’s, you know, the biggest thing with health and nature is that it doesn’t work without conservation. Right. And so one of our partners for my center is Texan by Nature, which is a foundation started by Laura Bush here in Texas to preserve outdoor space and work with businesses to work in conservation. And that’s been really important for us because we know we can love nature as much as possible. We can also love it to death. And so we do have to protect stuff that we do have for the planet and the climate.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, absolutely. So anything else that you’re working on that you’re excited about right now?
Closing the Green Divide and Final Thoughts
Jay Maddock: You know, one of the other things we’ve been working on is really looking at some of the behavioral theories that we use and how we adopt these to increase people’s time in nature. There’s a large gap among people with less education, across racial and ethnic divides, and across income of people that spend time in nature. And so looking at the social cognitive theory and how we kind of work to nudge people more into nature. And, you know, when we ask people, you know, do you think nature is good for you? Almost everybody says yes, right? Of course it is. Then why don’t you spend more time in nature? Well, it’s really low on my priority list, so I don’t think people really realize the actual benefits of being in nature. And then if they do, a lot like physical activity, time, weather, those kind of things can really reduce people’s time. So really trying to look at how we use psychology and behavioral economics to increase people’s time in nature.
Melina Palmer: Interesting. Well, I am so fascinated. I can’t wait to see the research come out here soon and hopefully some businesses that are looking to do more in this space. So I would say as a call out, you know, to anybody who’s listening from a company maybe where you’re looking to invest in something different that could help your employees to be able to have these benefits for their health, and maybe that expands your office in a cool way and can be part of some research. I’m guessing that Dr. Maddock would be interested in hearing from you about possibly doing some research and seeing what can be done in this space. So with that in mind, what is the best way for anyone to contact you and learn more?
Jay Maddock: Sure. You can reach me through my email, which is my last name, Maddock, M-A-D-D-O-C-K @ tamu.edu. And I’d be delighted to talk to anyone that wants to get more nature.
Melina Palmer: Awesome. And I’m guessing you recruit for studies here in the kind of Central Texas area often as well?
Jay Maddock: We do actually. We work with Dr. Palma’s lab and so if you are on the list for his studies in behavioral economics, we’ll also be using that as our recruitment for our virtual reality studies.
Melina Palmer: Awesome. Well, that sounds great. I will of course have the email written out. So actually, we don’t write out our email addresses and put them in the show notes because I care about your inbox and I don’t want you to get spammed by the Internet. So everybody who’s listening, you can write that down. And you can also contact me, melina@thebrainybusiness.com, and I could get you in touch with Dr. Maddock, if there were more conversations as well. Thank you again so much for joining me. It has been really fascinating to learn about all the great work that you’re doing. And please do keep it up and keep nature even better than it is today. We’ll keep moving back, I guess, as we move forward.
Jay Maddock: Thanks, Melina. I appreciate it.
Behavioral Nudges: Actionable Tips for Nature Integration
Melina Palmer: Thank you again to Dr. Jay Maddock for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today’s conversation? For me, it’s something Jay said that’s such a perfect example of the say-do gap. When he asked people whether nature’s good for them, almost everybody said yes. And then when he asked why they don’t spend more time in it, it was just, you know, low on the priority list. We know we just don’t do. But with all the massive benefits for cognition and health and stuff outside of just, “that’s nice,” let’s do what we can to help it stick for you and to get you a little more nature time.
So rather than leave you with the generic “go spend more time in nature” advice, since I know you know already and potentially aren’t doing as much as you should or would like, I want to give you some ideas for ways to actually change your behavior.
First, let’s remember that there are both macro and micro actions you can take here. Knowing that the three days of forest bathing had benefits for a month, that’s a ratio to at least consider as you pick what to do, how much of it and when. If that’s your thing and you can incorporate a long weekend each month, awesome! Schedule it in and know it’s an important priority. Personally, living in the forest isn’t my thing for one day, let alone three. So I might need to find something else to accomplish this goal. I have a resort I like to go to that is device-free in Arizona. I go hiking and do other great activities outside while I’m there. I also have a place by the beach that I like, and I think that finding one significant thing each month that you can do in nature could have a great benefit. Is there a half-day hike or a day at the beach you can schedule for this month, put on the calendar, and ideally pick the next three months and get it on the calendar now while you have some motivation before that hot-cold empathy gap comes into play?
Next, let’s look at some micro stuff. If you can schedule in a walk each day that’s at least 15 minutes, amazing! Pick a time, block it out and maybe do the first one. Now you can make it into a ritual. If you haven’t listened to the episode with Mike Norton on the Ritual Effect, super great one, highly recommend it. And you can partner this maybe with temptation bundling at first if you need to. That can mean listening to a favorite podcast or some music that you only get to engage with when you’re outside. I do think ideally this doesn’t have a technology element over time, but to just get into that habit is something that’s important, and if that’s the only way you’re going to get outside, do it.
I also like to work on my back deck when the weather is nice enough. I have some time gardening and watering the plants each day, which I can make a bit more thoughtful and intentional as I’m out and about. Maybe ensuring that I’m going to be out there for at least 15 minutes, though that’s kind of a summer thing as I live in a rainy climate here in Seattle. So I’m also going to be realistic. I know I am not going to go out and walk or sit in the rain if I can avoid it. So I need some other stuff in the world for me here to get that nature.
So I have incorporated indoor plants and I’m focusing on having more of those around. I also love fresh flowers, that feels like it can count and it’s a great excuse to buy yourself beautiful flowers each week. Win, win. I love that. And we have a nice farmer’s market near us which is on the water, so it can become a weekly outing to go walk around the market, which has an outdoor element, and get the flowers that I get to enjoy during the week. And I feel good about helping my community. That’s all wins there.
If you’re someone who doesn’t keep plants alive, I get it. Been there. Or you don’t want to invest in that, maybe find that nature screensaver for your computer or your phone. Put it on there right now. Don’t wait. There are those options also for TVs that can be like a nature channel of sorts, like a roaring fire style thing, but it’s actually, you know, the rainforest or something. You could have one of those up during the day for maybe an hour while you’re working nearby, or perhaps if there’s a playlist of nature sounds that you can create on your phone and have in the background while you’re working during the day. Maybe even a print that you really love that you can have up on the wall, that’s one of your favorite places. Tons of options there that you could look to to help incorporate those nature elements. And I would say, you know, if it’s the print or whatever it is, just be thoughtful to having it be close by so you actually see it so it can be doing the impact for you, that you’re actually engaging with that piece of nature and, you know, take some time to look at it every so often or listen to those sounds.
And if you’re a leader that’s thinking about your team, there is a lot you can do even if you don’t have a budget. You could put a plant or two in some shared spaces. You can encourage people to take their lunch breaks outside. You could have nature sounds available in a break room. One of my personal favorites for years was walking meetings. They solve so many things at once. Of course, the nature piece, you have movement, change in environment, and some of the best conversations happen when you’re side by side instead of across a table or on a screen. So the question of what your environment does to your team’s brains every day doesn’t come up nearly enough in the conversations leaders are having right now, but based on what Jay shared today, it probably should. So maybe even scheduling some time to have a discussion or to walk around if you have shared office space to see where there might be some options to incorporate this into the world… something that you could be doing and taking action on to make that difference.
So my question to you is, what’s one thing, big or small, you’re going to do differently after listening to this to overcome time discounting? Do something to start it right now. If you think you want the playlist, download it now and take some time to listen to it and then pre-schedule the next times you’re going to listen to it for the next week. Don’t wait and think you’re going to be more motivated tomorrow or on Monday or a week from now. It doesn’t work that way. Make the commitment to me by sharing it on social media. Come share it with me right now. You’re going to find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. I’d love to help keep you accountable and hear the ways that you’re going to test this out.
There are links in the show notes to make it easy to come share, as well as links for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It’s all waiting for you in the app you’re listening to and at the brainybusiness.com/583 and thank you again to Dr. Jay Maddock for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me next time for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business podcast. It’s going to be a lot of fun. You don’t want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.
