Unlocking ADHD: Strategies for Success in Work and Life
Brainy Business podcast digs into the psychology of why people buy
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 515 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Skye Waterson, founder of Unconventional Organization.
Melina Palmer: Ready? Let’s get started.
Announcer: You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here’s your host, 1Melina Palmer.
Brainy Business Podcast features Skye Waterson on ADHD productivity tips
Melina Palmer: Hello.
Melina Palmer: Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. When I talk about mindset work and applying behavioral science into your habits to be more productive, one of the most common questions I get is about how this all applies to those who are neurodiverse, especially those with ADHD. I have had a previous guest, Ziggy Hale, talk about ADHD within teams and how to optimize them by showcasing the value that each type of brain brings to the group. Today, my guest, Skye Waterson and I are focusing more on that productivity factor. She is going to be sharing about the four main areas where ADHD brains are different from neurotypical, including their response to dopamine when it comes to goals, how they experience time and other fascinating insights. And we’re going to talk about tips for those who have ADHD so they can optimize their own work and life to be more productive, as well as how this comes into play when the leader of a team has ADHD and a little bit about optimizing the workplace with consideration to those differences. It’s fascinating and I can’t wait to share this conversation with you.
A little bit about Skye before we jump in. She is an ADHD strategist and founder of Unconventional Organization, a multi six figure business helping entrepreneurs turn ADHD into their greatest asset. When she was diagnosed with ADHD during her PhD she realized that mainstream productivity advice didn’t work for her. So she took matters into her own hands, researching, testing and perfecting strategies that truly help. Today, she equips coaches, consultants, founders and executives with the same ADHD friendly systems, which I’m excited to have her share with you here on the show today.
Last thing before we get into the conversation, want to be sure you know there are links in the show notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Skye and myself and more. It’s all within the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/515. Now let’s jump right in.
Skye Waterson was diagnosed with ADHD during the first year of his PhD
Melina Palmer: Skye Waterson, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
Skye Waterson: Thank you. It’s great to be here.
Melina Palmer: Oh, yes. I am so excited to be chatting with you today. I think it’s going to be a great conversation. Definitely on a topic that I get questions about a lot. And there are, I feel like, less people working on this specific area than, what we might think. And so really delighted that you had connected and that we were able to work this out. So for everyone that’s saying, like, what is this area? What are we talking about? Like, for everybody who doesn’t know you yet, can you share a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
Skye Waterson: Yeah. So I am a former academic. I was diagnosed with ADHD during the first year of my doctorate. So I made it all the way to doctoral level with a lot of burnout and a lot of really excessive systems and a bunch of other bad coping mechanisms. And so when I found out I had ADHD, it was a real turning point for me. I started researching, couldn’t help it. That’s what I do. And, you know, teaching, you know, what I was doing in schools and eventually founded the Unconventional Organization, which, yeah, is what I now run today. And, we actually help business owners and executives with ADHD.
Melina Palmer: Perfect. Well, and always love the, like, I had this. And as you’re working through it, you’re figuring out ways that you can be helping other people. So what, what did you get your PhD? And you know, what were you researching at the time that you were, you know, in that.
Skye Waterson: My biggest frustration is that I got my diagnosis at the beginning of my PhD and not before it, because what I was researching was nothing to do with what I’m doing now. I had studied, spot the ADHD here. I studied psychology, sociology. I did developmental psychology, which did discuss ADHD and autism, but it was mostly in kids. And so when I got to postgraduate or PhD level, I was studying parents’ experiences of economic satisfaction in New Zealand. Something fun, but not related to the topic.
Melina Palmer: Yes, but, you know, learning to research and dedicate and focus your time, it’s interesting. You know, there’s a lot of the, so research when we think about optimism bias and some planning fallacy.
Four things that keep people stuck in status quo include optimism bias and planning fallacy
So, we talked a little bit leading into this conversation about my TEDx, about, you know, there’s nothing magical about Monday. These four kind of things that keep people stuck in their status quo, including optimism bias, planning fallacy, time discounting and bike shedding. But with the research that has to do with that optimism Bias. It’s talking about students who are doing their dissertations and when you ask them how long they thought it would take for them to get the work done. And I don’t have the numbers right in front of me, but you know, they said it’d be, you know, 24 days or something. And then it’s a, like in the best case scenario, how long do you think it’ll take you? And they said, I bet I could do it in 14 or whatever. And then the worst, like, if everything goes wrong, how long will it be? And they said, you know, 30 or something. And then it actually took them an average of 55 days. Like, so everybody kind of gets stuck, I guess in that way. And where we overestimate or underestimate how long it’s going to take us overestimate our own skills.
When you got ADHD diagnosis, it felt like a calling
So would you say that the work you were doing, like, were you kind of self testing as you were going through your own, you know, PhD and kind of working on yourself and learning some of these things of how to apply even if the research you were doing wasn’t, connected?
Skye Waterson: Yeah, yeah, 100%. So I would say, you know, for me, when I got the diagnosis, I had kind of a bit of a split at that point because, my, my PhD was by scholarship. I was lucky enough to do well enough in my masters that I was. Got a scholarship. Actually, if those of you want to know the story, I talk, in some article about how I, I dropped out and went and worked in a bakery for a year because I was so burned out. So once I’d been through that and art, school and a bunch of other things, I came back to do the PhD. And I was like, okay, I’m going to figure out what it is, you know, if there’s something wrong. I thought it might be disappointing. Dyslexia. When I found out it was ADHD for me, it was really like I had, I had to figure this out. This was like, it just felt like almost like a calling, you know, I needed to understand what was going on. And so I immediately started researching it. I immediately ran a postgraduate group for people who have neurodiversities because I’ve been running groups and teaching, you know, for yonks at this point. And so it just felt supernatural and, and I ended up, actually writing articles which had references in them, which I didn’t realize at the time was kind of a big deal because that wasn’t happening a lot and posting them on Like Facebook groups of ADHD groups that I was a part of and like that kind of thing. And that’s really where I got traction and attention that then led into what I’m doing today and it sort of culminated, you know, I used a lot of the systems that I developed over the next few years to write my thesis, and you know, do the research and testing. But I ended up in a position where I actually didn’t finish my PhD. And I went and studied the business full time. Because if you’re in academia, those of you who’ve done a PhD will know there comes a point where you have to just give everything, everything you have to that, to that process. You have to focus and do one thing. And you know, the advice I got from my supervisors was there’s always going to be another PhD but you’re not going to get this opportunity again. And so I went full in on the business and that’s how it turned out.
Melina Palmer: Awesome. And I love being able to have understood what mattered to you at that point and what it was you were looking to do. And like you said, if you had been studying something that was tied to what you then became passionate about, it might have been different, right?
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Skye Waterson: But it was the scariest decision I’ve ever made. I was fully, fully on the academic train. That is what I had studied for since I was in high school. Basically. I’d been going through this process, and so to sort of throw myself into the world of business, was very scary. But ultimately, you know, I run a multi six figure business now and I love it and I’m glad I made this decision.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, I love that.
You help people with ADHD and other neurodivergent conditions
Melina Palmer: So as we, you know, kind of dive into the insights and what you help people with and whatnot, I mentioned that I get questions about this a lot from people. So we found some synergies, like we’re saying, in the advice I give and how it ties in with the work that you do.
Skye Waterson: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: And you know, in this space of like, do one thing because our brains aren’t really good at multitasking, just across the board, like we could all do better in that way. And then knowing though that there are, you know, some things that are different going on in our brains, of course, for, for those with ADHD or other diagnoses, but understanding what that is and helping people, I get people that ask all the time, like, how does this apply? So if I have ADHD diagnosed or not, or I’m, I’m, whatever I’m dealing with, if I’m neurodivergent. What’s different for me?
Skye Waterson: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: So what would you, what would you share for that?
Skye Waterson: I think there are a number of key differences. I would say, dopamine, differences in how we, you know, receive dopamine. And we can go into the deficit, dopamine transfer deficit. But, you know, there’s also issues around time blindness, working memory, and then transition times, otherwise known as set switching. Those are kind of the key points. Ironically, you won’t actually see them a lot in the DSM, except for one tiny byline, because the DSM really focuses on this idea of impulsivity, which is a factor. But when people come to me, usually they’re struggling with more of the executive functioning side.
Melina Palmer: Mm. Well, I definitely want to go in depth on all four of those things. So let’s, let’s go.
When someone with ADHD starts a task, they don’t get a dopamine boost
You started with a dopamine piece. So let’s, let’s jump in on that. And I thought this was so fascinating. So, please share a little bit about that.
Skye Waterson: So this is an interesting space and I will say, like, if anyone knows any, send me the research on this. If you find a paper, just send it to me because I love this stuff. I’m just always trying to learn more. But, you know, there’s a paper, specifically, I think most well written by Trippin Wickens in 2009, if you do want to find it, where they talk about this idea of a dopamine transfer deficit theory. What that essentially means, is that it is theorized based on what we’re looking at in the brain, that when a neurodiverse person, somebody with ADHD, starts a task, they don’t get a little dopamine boost at the beginning in the same way as somebody who is neurotypical or doesn’t have ADHD gets. So the way I like to describe it is if you’re neurotypical and you sit down to start a task, your brain goes, hey, this is going to be great. You’re going to get a reward later on for this. So let’s just give you a big thumbs up now and say, whoa, good job. But if you’re ADHD and you start the same task, your brain just looks at you and goes, this is so stupid. Like, this sucks. Why are we doing this? And so you’re less motivated. It makes a lot of sense when you, when you explain it like that.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, for sure. And so, it’s, it’s so fascinating because we talk about that with goals and, being able to see, you know, like, this is what’s going to happen. And so we get the little bit of dopamine, and there’s one piece in the way of, not just resting on the dopamine, Laurel, you get at the beginning, you know, being one aspect of it, but. But knowing that that is a key. To completing the task. Right. To help us to see that this is something worth worth doing, that we get that bit of dopamine. And so what’s your advice, you know, for someone who does have ADHD, to help to overcome that so that they can, you know, focus on those important tasks and get them done?
Skye Waterson: Yeah, well, my advice, and, you know, I’ve tested this on hundreds of people at this point, including myself, is, what I call the dopamine dialogue. So, you know, basically what I advise people to do is to imagine, you know, their brain has got, like a big dial in it, one of those old school ones, and start giving yourself a reward for starting the task. A good reward. I like to, you know, put on some music. You know, that’s kind of a later thing. I think I’ll start by, like, grabbing a coffee, sitting down, watching Twitch, watching people play Stardew Valley, which is my favorite game, and kind of going through and then, and then maybe listening to a podcast, then maybe listening to music. And so, you know, what I’m doing essentially is I’m giving myself a dopamine boost for sitting down at my desk to work, which is so foreign. And you think about it from a neurotypical perspective, if you’re getting a dopamine boost for starting the task, because you know you’re going to get a reward at the end, the idea of then giving yourself a reward for starting the task as well feels inane. It doesn’t make sense. But if you’re neurodiverse, if you have ADHD, this could be the thing that helps you actually do the thing. If you want the full, I break it down step by step in a full article. You can always just email me or text me Brainy on Instagram at Unconventional Organization, and I’m happy to send it to you. I love giving this to people. But, yeah, just really how to go down the steps of giving yourself a reward, which to a lot of people is just a foreign concept.
Melina Palmer: Definitely. Well, and the aspect of the dial being, like, in the order you were putting there. Right. So the, you know, streaming on Twitch, there’s a lot more, dopamine coming from that of the, like, action of it and like are they going to make it? And this is interesting, there’s visual and all this stuff. And so if you, then once you’ve had that for a little bit, you dial it down to just the podcast. Right. So the visual aspect is gone. But I’m, I’m, I’m coming off of that big kind of hit of dopamine to then get the next, like you were saying, is some music. So, and maybe it’s not high energy or whatever, different type of music to help you. And I know like in your article too you’re saying kind of along those lines if you maybe make a couple notes about the thing you’re trying to do. Right?
Skye Waterson: Yeah. Work your memory sport there.
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Melina Palmer: So as you dial down the intensity of the dopamine that you’re getting your factory and kind of leveling up the work that you’re getting done to help accomplish the task and tie the, the benefit from the dopamine to the completion of the tasks, kind of as you’re making some progress there.
Skye Waterson: Exactly. And, and what that allows you to do is it allows you to get back to what we were talking about right at the beginning, which is the idea of doing one thing at a time because we do want you at the end of the day to be sitting there with maybe a little bit of background music because there’s some research that indicates that actually helps us stay in focus. But you know, something like that, but really just doing one thing, it’s just how we get there. That’s kind of the biggest difference. I want you to imagine if you’re, you know, if you have ADHD or you think you might have ADHD, it’s just how you get there might be different from somebody else.
Melina Palmer: Mm. Definitely.
Step into focus is really part of a full step into focus routine
And so I’m guessing there’ll be, you know, I’m thinking for questions for the audience members might have here. So is there a set amount of time that you should target for how long you stay in each one or how quickly you’re going to be, you know, ramping your way in? Is there a goal that you’re trying to achieve and to be able to transition in, you know, a month from now? I can do this in five minutes versus an hour and a half that it takes me today. Like what, what are some of the things about that?
Skye Waterson: So this is really part of a full step into focus routine that I teach. This is kind of step one. And you know what I usually say, because you’re right, I Get this question. All the time is most of the time you should be able to do this in about 15 to 20 minutes. But if you’re just starting out, think about how long you’ve been procrastinating a task in general at this point. Because sometimes people will procrastinate for hours. And let’s just imagine you could hop that time. And let’s go with that. You know, so, so sometimes people, especially because it can feel a bit like driving a car. It’s like the first time you do it, it’s a little bit clunky. It doesn’t feel supernatural once it becomes a part of your brain. And a lot of the times when people come to me and work with me, they say they, what they really love is it’s not tips, it’s a system that you can work sort of like a, practice. Once it becomes part of your brain, you’ll start doing it without even thinking about it. And that’s when it starts to become faster.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And that kind of, whether it’s habit or ritual around it.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Melina Palmer: But your brain then can be anticipating the next thing.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Melina Palmer: And being excited about what it’s going to get. And you can be as you. And you know, your brain’s going to get kind of bored and want to switch tasks anyway. So you might as well say we’re now switching to the podcast because that’s like kind of feeding into that aspect of it.
Skye Waterson: Yeah. And trusting. Oh, it feels so good. When your brain trusts yourself. It’s such a good feeling. Because right now your brain probably doesn’t trust you. It sounds strange, but think about it. It’s probably true.
Melina Palmer: Right? Yeah. That’s interesting. What about taking um, breaks then? Right.
And so what about something like taking breaks then?
Melina Palmer: Right.
Melina Palmer: So we know we’re going to get distracted.
Melina Palmer: All humans. Right?
Melina Palmer: You’re going to get distracted. And so there are things where it’s. Whether it’s like Pomodoro tech techniques or being, you know. So it’s maybe just for those who aren’t as familiar. If it’s say after 25 minutes you take a 5 minute break or after 50 minutes you take the 10 minute break and can do something. I talk about that kind of not yet. When I’m thinking about, I want to go check Instagram and say, oh yeah, I get to do that in 15 minutes when I’m done with this. Right. But is there any sort of guidance as far as where something like that is actually going to be bad if you work in too many breaks? When you’re, when it takes you longer to kind of get, get your goals going.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, I’m about to say, I’m like, I’m going to be a little bit controversial here because Okay, so. But I have research to back it up. So the Pomodoro method is awesome, but it’s not designed for ADHD or people with executive functioning deficits. It was designed by somebody in Italy who was trying to study. It actually also works really well for anybody in a study framework because you’re always hyper focusing sort of for a whole day, often on one thing. But in the sort of day to day, you know, business kind of life, what we tend to see with this is that, you know, we struggle with transition times and set switching. So if you go 25 minutes of work, 5 minute break, 25 minutes of work, 5 minute Break, your brain will like what, what tends to happen is people will say the Pomodoro really helps me start, but then I tend to turn it off once I’ve started and that’s usually an indication that you’re using it in a, in a different way. So what I tend to recommend is that you stretch the Pomodoro so we don’t get rid of it. It does work, but we say, okay, I’m going to work for, you know, maybe 45 minutes with a 15 minute break. We just want to give yourself, you know, I tend to even say half an hour. Like it depends on how long you can work at a stretch. And again, stepping into focus can really help with this. Especially if you do the whole system and you write down the tasks so you’re not distracted by the fact that you don’t actually know what you’re doing. But you know, if you can take a really nice long break after a good chunk of work and then do it again, that’s going to be just a much more natural way to get in and out of focus with ADHD.
Melina Palmer: Definitely. And I, I think in that way too. Is it a little bit of I, I don’t like when you have that some if people use a kitchen timer or something and then it’s gonna go off and be like, hey, like.
Skye Waterson: Your time is up.
Melina Palmer: Like you don’t want to be taken out of flow if you were in flow and introduce the distraction. Right. So you want to have something that will stop you if you’re gonna go way too long. But then, but knowing when it’s an alarm that has a sound or does something and when it’s just, this is the method to get me started and have some willpower to know that if I need a break in 10 minutes, I can have one, but if I don’t and I can like, work through it, it’s good. Which, feels like a good kind of natural transition into time blindness.
Skye Waterson: Yes. Yeah. And it’s funny with, you know, we talk about time as people are often really surprised to know that I have like two timers that go off in the daytime. And that’s about it. Two, maybe three. I have like a. This is the absolute. Like, if you’ve slept in, this is the time you have to wake up. Like that one that’s in my office. And then I have the end of the day, you should probably leave your computer. And then I have, like, you should go to bed. Like, you need to start getting. Like, those are the only ones. Like, everything else I do is using this really nice system of, you know, it doesn’t have to ping you all day. Because to your point, we do struggle with time blindness. We see a lot of research into this. I was so surprised by this. This is one of the things that caught me totally by surprise when I got diagnosed because you don’t realize that with people who don’t have ADHD or, you know, don’t have this executive functioning struggle, their brains are immense, like, sort of. They have a sense of like, oh, it’s been about 10 minutes. Which is wild to me. Like, I do not have that at all. And so, you know, they’ve done tests on this. They’ve seen like, press a button when it’s 10 minutes. And if you’re ADHD, people go like, maybe now, you know, like, I don’t know, usually dependent on how busy they are or whatever. So it does have a. Have a plus side. It means that you can get into hyper focus, which can be good if you know how to use it. So it does have that plus side. But, But yeah, very, very wild. Very different way of working.
Melina Palmer: Right. And so that, Like I said, so neurotypical, we can have a pretty good idea of. I bet it’s been about a half an hour. Like, it’s probably time to go do the next thing. Yeah, but, yeah, having that capacity. But also like to know, like we’re saying this, the flip side of where there’s a positive of, you know, if you get into that hyper focus and you can be working for a very long time and it doesn’t feel any different maybe than, you know, when you’re dedicating 15 minutes or something. And so there’s value as we think about how, we can, like lean into the benefits of any of our brains, right. And how they’re set up to, to work with that. Whether it’s understanding your team members better, understanding yourself better, all of that is, is really great.
The biggest piece of advice I can give to you is to externalize time
What advice then is there? You know, as far as if we take the time blindness as a key thing for someone. So if somebody is realizing, oh, my gosh, yes, me, I don’t, I don’t have that. What do. What do I do?
Skye Waterson: I’ve just realized on this podcast, the biggest piece of advice I can give to you is to externalize time. So this is the biggest thing. So our brain doesn’t have an internal time clock as much as it should. And so we need to find ways to externalize time. So it’s not just, I have an alarm on my phone. Because the truth is, time ceases to exist. Then an alarm goes off, and if you have too many of them, you don’t even remember which one it was, and you cancel them. And so this is why I’m not a, huge alarm person. What I recommend instead is thinking about a combination of different ways to see time. So put clocks around your house. You can make them look cool, put them up everywhere. Have a watch, you know, or hang it in different places if you have sensory issues. And then have one of those visual timers where if you turn it on, it has, you know, it has like, it shows you in red how much time is left. And then also just. Just start using little, little natural timers. So, you know, if you put something in the microwave, you know it’s going to be about this much time. If you boil a cup of tea, you know, it’s going to be about this much time. If you brush your teeth, you know, there’s a little buzzer that goes off after a couple of minutes so you can do some movement while you’re brushing your teeth. Like, things like that just bring time into your world a little bit more.
Melina Palmer: Mm. And so I, would assume kind of with this, where it’s. It’s not though, that you can train your brain to just like. And now I know how long? 15 minutes?
Skye Waterson: Unfortunately not. Yeah, otherwise I wouldn’t be here. I’d be somewhere very expensive on a beach somewhere.
Melina Palmer: And so, so I think knowing, though, that the goal isn’t to fix that, right? In the way of, like, I’m going. To Train my brain to do this now. Like, now that I know that that’s not something that you can change. And so I think also just even, not fully survivorship bias here, but this sort of so much advice that’s out in the world is to the point you’re making, like, written by neurotypical, that’s explaining like how you can get better at this thing. But if they don’t understand or have the type of brain that doesn’t have that dopamine piece that is having this issue with time blindness, it just isn’t going to. You. You can’t be that same way. Right. You can’t read the article and say, well, I’m gonna just, like they say I should do this thing and it’ll be easy and eventually I will like learn this. But if your brain’s not wired for that, that’s important to know. So you can just kind of remove the burden of feeling like there’s something wrong in why you can’t figure this thing out. To know that, like your brain just does this differently. And so these are some things that you can do externally to overcome that or whatnot.
Skye Waterson: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I think, you know, there is research into brain training because it is quite popular and it comes up a lot. And you know, what the research seems to indicate is that if you trained yourself, because you know this is from. Often comes from athleticism to do something very specific a lot, you could probably train yourself to be better at doing that very specific thing. But it’s not necessarily going to lead to a global shift in how your brain works. And so this is often what people don’t get, when we talk about brain training, M. Right.
Melina Palmer: So the transference of the skill.
Melina Palmer: Right. So if I know that it takes me just when you. Because you said athleticism and I was thinking about this from this sort of fitness perspective, but like, I’m going to do however many push ups, and I know that that takes me five minutes. And so I know that however many, you know, 25 push ups takes this long. Like, then I…
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For more resources and to get in touch with Skye Waterson of Unconventional Organization, visit thebrainybusiness.com/515.
