Introduction:
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 533 of The Brainy Business Understanding the psychology of why people buy. In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Louis Grenier. Ready? Let’s get started.
Announcer: You are listening to The Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of, why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here’s your host, Melina Palmer.
Creating Bold, Honest, and Effective Brands
Melina Palmer: Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to The Brainy Business podcast. Let me ask you something. What does it really mean to stand out? Not in the cliche, just be authentic kind of way, but in a meaningful, strategic, this is going to get noticed and remembered for the right reasons kind of way. In a world full of noise and marketing messages that often feel like empty promises, how do you create a brand that’s bold, honest and effective, especially if you don’t have a big budget? That is what we’re talking about today.
Meet Louis Grenier: Author of “Stand the F Out”
Melina Palmer: My guest is Louis Grenier and he is the creator of the Everyone Hates Marketers podcast and author of the provocatively titled book Stand the F Out, the no nonsense guide to positioning your business, finding your people on building a durable brand. And while Louis is prone to colorful and spicy language, he reigned it in for me here today. So you shouldn’t have to worry about that. As you listen. If you have ever been frustrated by being told to stand out but not been able to find out how exactly to do that, this episode is for you. As you listen, I encourage you to think about this. What would it look like to be just a little braver in your brand? What are you ready to say no to so you can really stand for something really quickly, before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It’s all within the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/533. Louis Grenier.
Interview with Louis Grenier: Why Everyone Hates Marketers
Melina Palmer: Welcome to The Brainy Business Podcast. How off was I on? Was a little bit too a.
Louis Grenier: I think you are 80% there, which is good enough.
Melina Palmer: You can say it now then. Okay, so for everyone who doesn’t yet know you, you say your name properly and then, let us know a little bit about yourself and the work that you do.
Louis Grenier: Sure. my name is Louis Grenier. No, Louis Grenier. I’m recovering Frenchman living in Ireland for the last 15 plus years. I’m a dad. I’m a marketer, I’m a husband. I’m a bowel cancer survivor as well. And yeah, I help brands and companies stand the F out. and that’s the short summary.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, well, and thanks for joining me and I am honored that I have been a guest on Everybody Hates Marketers and knowing that being able to have you come, you know, full circle and be over here.
Melina Palmer: So why, why, why do all the people hate the marketers? What’s that about?
Louis Grenier: There is this quote from, from Seth Godin that he said on my podcast. but he’s using a lot of curse words but I’m going to try to make it less for the sensitive ears. He says something like because we are manipulative, people who are just desperate to sell stuff and lie to people and whatnot. So again. What I would say from my perspective. I actually sent an email today to my list about it which I call those people parasites, digital parasites of lying about things on purpose in order to sell their stuff, knowing full well that they are lying, knowing full well that this has a negative impact on people and keep doing it after decades and decades. So an example of this behavior is on YouTube, the YouTube video titles that are saying like how to make 100k in the next month and that’s the title. But then inside that your content is someone who’s done it. We don’t really have the proof, but they’ve done it. And based on their own unique set of circumstances and context and skill set and network and whatever, they’ve done it. And the title is the, is hinting at the fact that you can do it too, which is not true. And they know that. Right. And people listening might think oh yeah, that’s a little thing, that’s just a little lie. But it adds up. So that’s why everyone hates marketers because they think that they are all like that. But it’s only the ones we see.
Melina Palmer: Ah.
Louis Grenier: And notice that are like that. People like you are way more like the honest people doing good work for companies around brands, creating good products and promoting it in a honest way don’t get noticed because it’s good marketing and it just blends in. but yeah, it’s only the bad one that surfaces.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And it’s definitely the like everyone hates who they think marketers are. Right. That what.
Louis Grenier: Correct.
Melina Palmer: And their knowing in the same way where there are lots of bad like in the used car salesman being the kind of the thing that people say about people who sell stuff. Ah, but there are plenty of really wonderful, kind people who genuinely want to help the world that sell used cars. Right. It’s not like everyone is this sleazy monster. And same with companies and with marketing. I know I get people asking all the time of like, where’s that line with behavioral economics where it’s you know, isn’t it just manipulating people? Right? Is that thing that people like to ask and like, and, and aren’t companies just trying to do this? Which, like, I’ve worked with so many companies. I know you have as well. Like everyone I work with, they are kind, genuine people who believe in the product that they’ve built and they know that it can help someone and they’re trying to figure out how to get that right product in the hand of the right person so that they can benefit from what it is. They are not trying to take advantage of people. And like, yes, there are some bad actors out there in any industry, in any aspect, but they are going to find whatever tools are at their disposal, be it marketing, behavioral science, or anything else to do bad things, no matter what. So let’s arm the good people with, with good marketing tactics and behavioral science.
Louis Grenier: Yeah, I was nodding for the last two minutes because that’s exactly it right when I started my podcast, which is now, which is now, on pause at the very least. So eight years ago, nine years ago, I thought there were way more bad people in marketing. but then over the last year, decades, I’ve realized that that’s not the case and that you only hear about the bad ones. And yeah, there’s so many good people. And I agree with you. The vast, vast majority of people just want to do, create something good for people, helping them in one way, shape or form and genuinely believe in it. So, yeah, I agree with your assessment.
The Evolution of the “Everyone Hates Marketers” Podcast and “Stand the F Out”
Melina Palmer: Yeah, well, so you, you talk a lot about your journey in the, in your book. and I know that you share, through. So you, you’ve had the podcast which, you ended up starting. you can tell the kind of the story, I guess, of how you have learned a lot of your lessons along the way that you share with people and the importance of standing out, and not just getting stuck in the middle. Right. It’s that hurting problem of where, we want to feel safe, when we’re creating those brands, when we’re setting something up. so, what I guess Led you to start the podcast. And then as far as where now you’ve stopped the podcast, is that to make space for where, you’re now doing the daily newsletter and having stuff with the book. Like how does. What was the transition of letting something go, or at least like you said, putting it on pause, over after, you know, eight, nine years.
Louis Grenier: Yes. When I started Everyone Hates Marketers. That was eight, nine years ago. That was in Internet years, 100 years ago, easily. Right. So the podcasting wasn’t as popular. My dad had never heard the word podcast, all of that. Right. So it was quite early. And my idea was just to have conversation with people that I admired on Skype, which again shows my Internet age. Because Skype is gone. Right. Skype is literally over, which is, crazy to see, think about. So yeah, it was just me having conversation with people, realizing that I actually enjoyed the very act of interviewing people. And I also enjoyed, putting it out there, the fact that it was online and all of that. And it started from there. So because again, it was so long ago, I managed to get very big guests straight away. I managed to get Seth Godin pretty fast. I managed to get, DHH from Basecamp, one of the co-founder of Basecamp at episode number three. All of those things are, I think, impossible to do nowadays unless you have an extremely big network or a very, very cool idea or a lot of luck. So that’s why it started and then it just took off. People said that they really liked my interview style and I felt it was just my normal for me, but wasn’t for others. I just really liked paying attention to what people said and asking, pointy question. So it worked. I think we got more than 2 million downloads organically over the last, you know, seven, eight years. And the reason why I started to think about this idea of standing the eff out and why I wrote a book about it was a conversation I had with Seth Godin when he was talking about, about that concept of companies shouldn’t take a product and then find ways to make it remarkable or might find a way to make the brand remarkable. They should make the product remarkable in the first place. And, stand out this way, essentially. And, I kept thinking about it, kept looking for resources about it, kept looking at podcasts or even books. I just genuinely could not find an answer that told me, this is how you stand out when you don’t have a lot of budget, when you are in crowded markets. This is how you stand out in those actionable steps, I just could never find. It was always why you should but never tell you how to do it. So that annoys me for years. And I kept thinking about it. I was interviewing more and more people. I was working at Hotjar at the time, which was tech startup like product marketing. So I was really learning about positioning and all of that branding, through that. And yeah, the book is the combination of, of that question being answered through my conversation with people, through all the research I’ve read, the books I’ve read from my own experience. That’s kind of the itch I wanted to scratch for years. and to answer the second part of your question about why I stopped is because Stand the F Out, started to. It’s so weird. I’m never going to do that again. Never. It’s over.
Melina Palmer: I know. I can say, you, know audience. Sorry. Louis, uses colorful language often and he’s being very kind and reining it in and saying just F instead.
Louis Grenier: Thank you. Yeah, yeah. So you’re welcome. and that brand, that part of the brand started to take over. So it started as a cohort based course. I didn’t think that much of the name. And then people kept saying, repeating it back to me to, to explain not the process of standing out, but more the idea, the ethos behind it, which has never been formalized, but more this concept of courage and intensity and doing things with intent without worrying too much about what others think, which come back to what you’re saying. So it took over more and more and now it’s basically, that IP, that core method, we sell it through different ways. and that’s taking over. And yes, I just don’t have the energy to do a podcast like this anymore. And it doesn’t fit anymore because I used to do interviews around SEO and messaging and positioning and branding and copywriting. And so we used to cover so many topics in marketing, but now we’re only doing essentially positioning, branding, specifically for marketing business owners or people in credit market. And so it’s so much more specific. I just don’t see myself being a, podcast host talking about marketing, and focusing on standing out. It just doesn’t fit anymore.
Melina Palmer: M. Yeah, well, and I think it’s such a great lesson because like you say, it’s not that like, well, you know, really started dwindling and nobody cared about this thing anymore. Right. It’s still successful and could be its thing if you chose to stay on that path. Right. But also to Say, hey, to really do this thing that is worth the time that you’re more passionate about now, that is, you know, standing out in a crowded marketplace, you know, on its own, you know, you have to let things go sometimes, and that’s okay. I always think of when I had, Liddy Klotz on the show, who wrote the book Subtract, he said that stuck with me is that less is not a loss, even though it feels like it, you know, and so that in this way, letting go of that or you know, pausing doesn’t mean it’s gone forever, but you know, you’re not doing that right now. Allows you to have the space to see where, STFO can take.
Louis Grenier: Ah, yeah, we can say it like that. Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of this great song. I don’t know if you’ve heard it. Let it go, Let it go.
Melina Palmer: Maybe, maybe once or twice.
Louis Grenier: Yeah. but that’s so true, right?
The Importance of Deciding What Not To Do
Louis Grenier: And that’s one of the things that I share, that I believe that I share in the book. It’s like the, I don’t know what you think about your own business and the way you run it. but I think that the decisions, the most important decisions you can make is choosing what you are not going to do, what you’re not going to say, who you are not going to look up to. All of those decisions are far more important than what you’re going to do. because the what not is way bigger. Right. The proportion of the things you decide not to do is always way bigger than the things you are going to do.
Melina Palmer: Oh yeah. Yes, I, I have, ah, my, my TEDx is talking about all the things to say not yet to so that you can focus on the, the right and most important things. And so I’m all about that. and so most people knowing we’re going to just jump to something that you talk about in the book, but it’s like pretty deep in there, which is like how I, I jump all around on these.
Reframing “Niching Down”
Melina Palmer: So you, talk about why niching down is a joke, right? We don’t stop talking about niching down. and, but it’s kind of like saying no to other things is kind of the, the what niching is about sort of at its central core. so people have heard the advice, they’ve been told they need to niche down. If that’s not what it is, why is that not the advice that you like per se? And what would you recommend to people instead?
Louis Grenier: I’m not against the idea of niching down. I’m against what people tend to think or what those parasites I was talking about earlier tend to say that niching down is.
Louis Grenier: So niching down is not picking a specific industry like SaaS, picking a specific job title inside there like CMOs and then picking a revenue number like under 10 million and say this is my segment, this is my niche. My niche are SaaS, companies under 10 million, and specifically sending to CMOs in there who want to do X, Y and Z. That’s just pure arbitrary way to look into it. And I think it removes the entire reason why segmentation, niching down, picking a specific segment you can obsess over is working and will always work, especially for challenger brands, small companies trying to gain market share. The reason why niching down is so important and it works is because by focusing on a smaller group of people who have struggles in common, problems, pain points, whatever we’re going to say in common, you find people who feel those more intensely or with more frequency than the average. Which means that those people who suffer from those things more acutely than the average are then more likely to flock to you if you have a solution to their issues that they haven’t found elsewhere. So you’re giving them a compelling reason to pick you over the rest. Which is why when you have a super complex industrial plumbing system, you don’t go and contact a handyman, you contact someone who’s an expert there because they can solve problems that are extremely acute, extremely specific and precise, which make them the best, or at least the least risky option to go for. So niching down, that’s what at its core is there. And so if we unpack, it then going up stream, it’s finding a group of people with problems that they feel acutely or more frequently than the average, that other alternatives or direct competitors don’t care for or don’t do very well. And once you have that, you can then add attributes to that and say, okay, the people who tend to suffer from this the most are Latinas are in B2B SaaS or whatever. But it’s not the arbitrary. Just let’s find qualifiers and let’s just say this is our segments.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, definitely. Well, and you mentioned there for Latinas and I know that there was a really great example in the book that I enjoyed as you carried through this process of your framework of helping those brands to stand out and specifically a shampoo, brand in there so, can you use that? And I suppose if you have a brand or an example that you like, that’s top of mind, that’s different, you know, feel free to do that instead.
Louis Grenier’s 4-Step Framework for Standing Out
Louis Grenier: But can you talk a little bit about, you know, you wrote the book on helping us to stand out with small budgets and whatnot. You know, what’s the, what’s the framework? What’s the process for someone?
Louis Grenier: So there’s four core steps. Unique positioning, distinctive brand, insight foraging. Excuse me, unique positioning, distinctive brand and continuous reach. Right. So it’s essentially backing up the decades long research on marketing, on things on behavioral science, like using a four step process system that works for my brain that I found is helpful to think about. so insight foraging is about finding those nuggets of information about your people and the way they buy. Unique positioning is offering a compelling reason for the right people to pick us. Distinctive brand is to be noticed, by pretty much everyone, for reasons that are quite meaningless. We can go through that if you want. And continuous reach is how to basically get in front of as many people as possible within our means. So it’s again very, very, very foundational. There’s no flavor of the month. It’s pure, you know, first principle thinking. So yeah, the first step is insight foraging, which is essentially customer research. if you want to talk about it this way. It’s really about understanding that people lie to us. I’m sure you know more than me on this. People lie to us, people don’t remember stuff. People are just extremely bad at giving us information we need as marketers. And so we do need to have a lot of protection in place in order to make sure we don’t pick up poisonous inside. And if I was to give you this example of Latina. So a few years ago I was consulting for companies that had created a shampoo specifically for Latinas. Latina women with long, frizzy, hair who had this type of hair that wasn’t like the full on Afro but wasn’t either too straight. It was curly at the bottom and not so curly at the top. Anyway, I didn’t know anything about it until I started to work with them. But those people in particular had a struggle in common that they felt more acutely than the average because they were after they were living in like warmer climates, tend to be in Florida, California, humid. That was causing their hair to be difficult to wrestle with. no alternatives in direct competitors. Now the shampoos tend to like be good for this specific type of hair. Right. And they had spent three years to develop the shampoo. They were super happy with the result. It worked. And the only thing they had in order to market it was a set of reports that I think they had commissioned from a research firm about. If I remember correctly, they kept telling me, oh, we index very well in that group. We don’t index so well there. So they were getting confused and they were drowning in these reports about whatever subgroup of the population is over indexing there. Like they just didn’t know what they were talking about really. They were just getting lost in all the data and what tends to happen there. I’m sure you can back it up with some sort of a, cognitive bias here, but like thinking that the more complex and the more in depth the information, the more trustworthy they are.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Louis Grenier: And that’s something I like to fight against when I work with people. It’s like, you know what, one conversation with one client, the right person with the right questions, I’m pretty sure I could get better information than this. Hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of reports. And that’s what I told them, which is insight foraging. Let’s forget everything here because you’re talking nonsense, you don’t even know what you’re doing. And I want you talking to the CEO and most of the directors. I want you to personally talk to recent customers. So people who had already bought the product recently. Importance, right? So that they remember somewhat of the experience. And we have proof that they’ve bought it. So we don’t ask random people what they think about shampoo, would they buy this shampoo? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We focus on, on, on things that have happened, which is another very important criteria. And then I asked them to ask a set of like essentially six questions or six core things that we want to know about them. What were they trying to accomplish as customers? What is the core job, job to be done, the goal, whatever you want to call it, alternatives, what other solution have they used or considered in the process? So it could be other shampoos that they buy in the supermarket, but for them a big thing was straightening their hair in a salon frequently. So visiting a very specific salon that is like miles away, that caters for Latinas in particular, that’s an alternative. Struggles. What problems were they trying to solve? So like pain points, struggles, whatever you want to call it, segment. What customer information is relevant to those customers? What are the things that they have in common? Category what is the thing that we’re selling and triggers. What specific events led them to, to this purchase? So that’s it. And I told them if you talk to the right people, if you ask the right question, and then if I help you to analyze the answer, I guarantee you’ll have way more clarity. And that’s what happened. Right. Instead of having those reports that are just very again foggy, they had a clear story, very clear story. So I can go through that very briefly. They found out that the core job in their words, was to control the frizz. That’s essentially the overarching goal that they couldn’t get to initially. They try stretching their hair in the salon, they try a two hour hair care routine at home, trying all the shampoos from the supermarket. But they still couldn’t get to that job. Why? Because the warm humid weather makes their long frizzy hair go out of control. And the sense of control or lacking control was not something they could get from alternatives.
Avoiding Poisonous Insights in Customer Research
Melina Palmer: So then the segment we narrowed it on to be Latinas. Sure. With long frizzy hair. That’s important because the longer the frizzier the hair, the more the struggle is acutely, felt in humid weather. Mainly Florida and California. They were after the US So mostly like a lot of the Latino community is ah, pretty big there and the weather is humid and warm which makes the hair even worse. So struggle felt more intensely. Some of the triggers were they have like a big night out soon or like a birthday coming out, stuff like that. So like very social based kind of triggers. So you see like again I’m going fast on there but how clear is the story and how much you can build on it with campaigns and stuff?
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And I love that, I think it was so clearly stated in the book and where you’ve done here of being able to see where we’re getting that insight foraging. And I really love the comparison in the book of you know, going out for mushrooms and watching out for those poisonous insights which are really tempting. and it’s easy to get stuck with something that seems like it’s so important. but it’s a poisonous mushroom and you need to stay away. Like don’t worry about those those insights or something that’s you know, distracting or, or unimportant. Can you give an example of what a, a poisonous insight might be for this client? If you can, but if you have a different example that’s fine.
Louis Grenier: Yeah, yeah, no, sure, it could be to send a survey to customers who bought last year and ask them question about their purchase. It could be sending a survey to people who bought very recently, but asking them, would you buy again? Or question about the future of what they could do. Would you buy this particular unit again? So essentially what you want to avoid is those, insights that look like good insights but are done, shared by people who might not remember things, who might lie to you, who might not have bought the product in the first place. You want just to be very pragmatic and to pick only a group of people you can learn from that, you know, almost for sure that you’ll get good insight from. So another, another example, let me see. that is, that is important here. is. So, yeah, if you talk about Latinas, another thing would be to talk to, people who they might have bought an alternative. And people tend to think that you can’t learn anything from people who bought a different product or even done something like, I don’t know, a two hair care routine in their home. They think it’s poisonous inside, but it’s not because you want evidence that someone is struggling enough to have tried alternatives, to have done something in the past. And if I could just get insight for a group, I. Let’s say I don’t have access, I don’t have product yet. I haven’t sold anything yet. I would get a lot of insight just from those people. Right? It doesn’t have to be buying your own product. It doesn’t have to be, even buying a direct competitor. as long as you have proof that they spend time and or money and or resources to solving that thing, then you can learn a lot. So that’s kind of the opposite of your question. But like what people think is poisonous, but it’s not.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, right. Well, and I’m sure everyone listening has asked the would you buy this again? Question and the other, you know, comment of like, on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely are you to recommend us to a friend or family member? Right? The So why. Let’s tell. Why is that a bad. And why is that a poisonous insight to be asking those questions?
Louis Grenier: You tell me. You’re the, you’re the expert. I’ll tell you what I think based on what I’ve learned, and you tell me if I’m wrong. So it’s bad because people can’t predict the future. So that’s one thing already we don’t know what we’re going to do tomorrow. And then there’s so many biases at play about status and about, like being seen as someone who’s responsible, saying, oh, I only drink water. I never really, I will never drink this drink. It’s too full of sugar. And then an hour after, you can see them buying that, the supermarket. So that’s my short answer.
Melina Palmer: Right. Well, and I think too, is when you get into those sorts of things, it’s wanting to make people have this inherent need to help the researcher feel better, Right. Or say, oh, yeah, sure, sure, I’d recommend it, you know, and. And like you said, as you think about that in the future, whether it’s trying to be nice or you think you’re being helpful, but it’s not as useful as you’ve said here in this case of like, sort of. So, hey, why’d you. Why’d you do that? Right? Tell me more about that. You talk about the, you know, that five whys in the book, like, and why this and why that and why does that matter? And understanding that story and getting to the insight.
The Power of Evocative Language and AI in Research
Louis Grenier: I appreciate one of the things you said is like, how do you know you have a good insight? there were several things, but one of the ones that stout for me of, like, if it makes you laugh, right? Like, the thing makes you kind of like, laugh out loud at the thing that the person says feels like, okay, this might really resonate and be a thing. And I know that, you know, often in the book you’re talking about how people are saying they look like a witch with the big frizzy hair. And to say, okay, like, enough people said they look or feel like a witch, and nobody really wants that, I would expect. And so we can lean into that in the way that we might talk about that messaging to resonate with the right people.
Louis Grenier: It connects with copywriting and some principles of copywriting, which is like, can you see the words you’re writing? Can you make them? Can you feel them? Right? And, when I, when I do so interviews, we just centered around that. But there’s so many other ways to do insight writing. So you can look at customer reviews, you can send surveys, you can observe people in their environment, like, be on fly on the wall. All of those are valid ways to get there. And usually the, the way I like to kind of feel what’s going on. Is there something that shocks me, makes me laugh, it’s funny, or whatever is really look out for the. Yeah, for those little moments, those little things that people Say, that makes me like, close my eyes and imagine what’s going on. And, So looking like a witch is one. Like, you can see those words. And I can imagine campaigns already. I can imagine messaging, you know, so all of those little things, it’s so important. This is why I encourage people to do that part of the process themselves, or at least some of it. Because you can’t replace those little, Little moments that you can frankly turn an entire brand around. Just one single idea, right? You only need one good idea, and then you share it 1000 ways in 1000 formats or whatever. So that. Which stuff could be the entire brand could be. You know, it has so much legs, so many legs. So, yeah, that’s. That’s why, like, this.
Louis Grenier: I don’t know what you feel about the. This. This artificial. I don’t know how they call it, this new thing with the AI where you can do, artificial research or whatever. Like on. How do they call it? It’s not artificial research. It’s, There’s another term for it anyway, right.
Melina Palmer: Where it’s simulating the, the human response in, the.
Louis Grenier: Yeah. Like basically essentially doing user research on the AI and it’s feeding you seemingly good insight. I think it’s a very risky business because everyone can have roughly the same information about. Okay, this is who buys more. Like the index and stuff like that. What makes you stand out is the little details that you can double down on that can really give you an edge that make you pick a very specific struggle that is even smaller than the one you thought about solving, but is more painful for people. So you can reposition everything around that. And then as you said, the witch example, the visual, the metaphors, the things that make people laugh. Like my rooster, my mascot, that I’ve created with behavioral science in mind. I knew it would be a hit because my daughter loves it, right? So every time the stickers, she would steal them. I have a little fanny pack, of my rooster. She steals it every time she comes to my office. And I knew it would be a hit because she liked it and, therefore everyone else would. Right. Even so, it’s those little things that you need to pay attention to. That’s what makes us human. And, yeah, I’d be very careful to try to outsource all of that. Like, that’s where the goal comes from.
Melina Palmer: Yes. Yeah. Well, and that is. I love that. And that’s my son. and I mean my daughter too, but they love, to steal the purple brain out of my office in the same way of, And so. And they talk about him all the time. So that ends up being a fun little thing that people end up talking about.
The Importance of “Spice” in Branding
Melina Palmer: I had so many things that I wanted to talk and ask about, and little, tidbits and insights and things that were so interesting throughout the book. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about, and we hinted at it a little bit, but is I really appreciated the chapter about Spice, and I think that’s something people don’t talk about enough. And I like the way that you presented it. So can you share a little bit about the importance of. Of being spicy?
Louis Grenier: So it’s not like in Dune where the spice is the.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Louis Grenier: Yeah, it’s not exactly like that. Although, you know what? I mean, maybe I’m gonna admit something, and I’m not afraid of admitting it. I. When I wrote the book and when I came up with that analogy, I hadn’t read or seen Dune as the movie, stuff like that. Right?
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Louis Grenier: And if I. If. Yeah, I know, but if I had, I would have used it way more like, as a. As a kind of a analogy. so the spice is kind of my answer to the problem of company values and the fact that companies that come up with those values about authenticity and, transparency and weird stuff that no one really follows. And it’s really about, like, going back to behavioral science and think spice at the very core of it is like being too something. Right? So too emotionally intense too something. And it’s this idea that, when we believe that something is part of our identity. So I am a chef, cooks spices with spices. I am something. I am a voter. I’m a, ah, whatever. Friendly, person. I’m a Republican. I’m a whatever. We are way more likely to, behave in that way. So believing something that is part of our identity and we say I am to it is critical. And so that insight led me to think, okay, how do I make sure that we talk the talk? It’s super easy to talk the talk and say we are innovative and we are whatever. but how do you walk the work for real? How do you actually make you and your people behave in a way that you want them to behave? How do you make them be super intense in one direction? I’m a very intense person. Right. And I like to go deep into stuff, and I’m very passionate when I choose to do something. And I’m doubling down on that. Right. I’m finding new ways to be more Intense about it. And that’s kind of the principle. It’s like finding a couple of those spices. I’m to something and just dabbling down with intensity, so that you walk the walk. Not just talk, to talk. So in the book, I talk about this example of this, like, Danbury Trashers, Isoki team, which Isoki, team in, in. In the small town of Danbury in Connecticut. And, I love how they managed to do talking the, talking the talk and walking the walk. So they were talking the talk saying that they were rough and they were like, they were on the ice to fight as well as to. To entertain, not just to win games. And it could have stopped there, but they didn’t. They went all in. They walked the walk. They were definitely too aggressive. and they were, for example, going to, the team that they were playing their locker room and switch off the water and, only getting players who knew how to fight better than they knew how to play hockey. And it’s those little things that really make a brand stand out. Is this just really going all in with intensity in one direction? No compromise. Right. Like, behaving that way as well and being anal about it, like, really not letting anything slip. which is why I don’t. I don’t think values work. You need to pick one or two of those spices and double down on it, making sure that your people. That’s part of their identity. and, have fun with it, you know?
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And I, I really like too, in the way of the. So the learning about the. The Danbury Trashers was interesting in that example throughout the book, but also, you know, for the, you know, if you just think about spice in the case of, like, at the restaurant. Right. So if you say you don’t want your food to be too spicy because then not everybody will like it. But you go in and say, like, we have the spiciest curry or whatever. I forget exactly what dish you. Yeah. like, so we’ve got the. The spiciest one. And then when it comes time to actually serve it, you kind of like, wimp out. Right? And like. But, like, what if they can’t handle the spice that we were thinking of? We’ll just dial it back a bit. Right? So then you’re gonna let down the people that were expecting and wanting it to be really spicy. and it’s probably still too spicy for the people that, you know, think ketchup is spicy or whatever. Right. And can’t eat that. There are. I Know, there are people that can’t, that say they can’t eat ketchup because they think it’s spicy. Okay.
Louis Grenier: Yeah. Okay.
Melina Palmer: There are people in between there. Right. But, and so, you know, you’re not catering for toddler palates as we have this here.
Channeling Your Alter Ego for Bravery
Melina Palmer: Right. So, you know, going, going all in and being whatever that thing is. And so to say, if you’re going to do the thing and be extreme in whatever it is, whether it’ spice or the way that you present that information just to like lean into it and you’re not going to stand out if you’re living in the middle. Right. If you regress to the mean, in this way and, and get too, too average on that, I do like too, that you talked about, for people that then. So it’s easy to say you’re going to do the big thing and then it’s time to turn on the camera or to post that post out into the world to get a little bit, scared. Right. Because we’re a herding species. So you don’t want to, you don’t actually want to stand out. It feels uncomfortable, but that’s how you know you’re doing something good. so you make the recommendation of maybe coming up with an alter ego, which I thought was really helpful. can you share a little bit about that?
Louis Grenier: Yeah. So again, that’s not my thinking. It’s from a book called Alter Ego, which talks about this in again, backed by a behavioral science about why it works. So for example, Freddie Mercury. That’s not his real name. It’s, I think, Farrokh, something. I’m gonna butcher his last name. But there’s this kind of concept about identity where if we manage to trick our brain in a sense of channeling an alter ego, being someone else and really believing it to our bones, then it’s very. It’s much easier to actually do the things you’re scared of. so Freddie Mercury is this flamboyant, super flamboyant guy, like probably one of the best entertainer, performer in the history. And, yet his real self was way more shy and subdued and all of that. And so how do those two coexist? Well, by channeling your alter ego. And that’s one technique that I like to use. I do it less and less now, but I used to really do that when I was interviewing people where I was wearing a hat. That made me kind of stepping into this host of like, going deep and asking questions. I wasn’t afraid of asking. Nowadays, it feels like my, myself, my true self and my alter ego are almost the same. I think I’ve kind of bridged the gap and I don’t need that trick anymore. But I think for people who want to discover how far they can go, trying to channel an alter ego, which could be like an augmented version of yourself, like a superhero version of yourself, or even channeling something that already exists. And think about, what would Freddie Mercury do in this instance instead of, what would Melina do? Those questions help your brain to, I think, be more at ease with the idea of doing something. So I also use this analogy where I would say it’s like you are the general manager of that person going on stage, but you’re not that person going on stage. Right. It’s like two different people. Right. The performer is Freddie Mercury. The general manager is Farrokh Bulsara. So it’s, it’s. Yeah, I find it so interesting to do. And again, it’s backed up by, by, by science and the way people behave and, think of identity. It’s really cool.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. Oh, and I like that, like you said of putting on the hat there, where there can be something that you can have, whether think about it as like the ritual or the hat, the, sorry, the habit, the thing that you do to help to trigger to your brain that, like, we’re transitioning, we are this person now, where it might be like you, you know, in the glasses for Superman, you know, you talk about in the book too. But also it’s like, ah, or if you have a, you know, a ring on one side and you move it to your other hand to be your alter ego, whatever that’s going to be or something. Right. You put on something, you do something, and then you can take it off to transition out of whatever that identity is, to really help trick your brain into embracing that. And like you said, for the sake of if it’s not a personal brand, to say that, you know, knowing that our brand is this thing and it pushes the envelope in this way and, you know, you can come up with a mascot or something that can, can help to accomplish that. But I think that’s really helpful advice to, just embrace the thing that feels a little bit scary.
Louis Grenier: Yes. Again, just to build up on that briefly, I’ve learned over the years to lean on to this, like, butterfly in my stomach type of feeling. If I feel like there’s something like that, I feel like, oh, it’s a bit risky or whatever. I know how to recognize that. And feeling like, okay, I need to double down on that, I need to do even more then, because every time I do this, every time I do this, and every time I feel like I’m in line with who I am, it sounds a bit cliche, but, like, every time I feel in this groove of doing something that I believe in and whatever good things happen. Right. And it’s when you don’t. It’s when you really, like, push back and let your inner voice fight, all of that. And you don’t channel that alter ego. You don’t channel that spice deep enough that you’d end up doing something that you don’t really like, that doesn’t stand out and whatnot. it’s not easy to do. I think you need a bit of taste and experience. Right. It’s. I don’t think. I mean, I’m sure I would have never been able to do this 10 years ago, 15 years ago. You need to go through the motion. You need to make mistake. You need to learn from them. And then after a while, you start to have taste for it. You start recognizing what is spicy, what you want to do. And you can double down on it, but it takes time. there’s no shortcuts for it, despite what some people might say.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And that’s where, you know, being able to really lean into, whether it’s a question that you love and want to solve or a problem you’re looking to solve for people, but something that you can be really passionate about and, dig deeper on and get like, becoming a better master of that than anybody else, even if you’re investing in that same industry. you talk about, like, kind of not getting bored in the book. And we won’t spoil, that story for. For those who are listening. But as we have.
The Trojan Horse Approach: Giving People What They Think They Need
Melina Palmer: One more thing that I’ll ask about before we wrap up, which is I also really love the example for the Trojan Horse and where when we start to sell and it feels like we have to be. I see this with my, you know, people that listen to the show and reach out, or for my own clients, where it’s like, you feel like you to be one. Whatever you think is the most important thing and what people need. And you have to talk about it like that, or that we need to be so different from everything that we have to talk about this new thing and try to sell people on this idea of something that’s unlike anything you’ve ever seen before. And that is a really hard thing to do to get people to buy something that they, one, don’t think they want, or that they’ve never heard of and don’t have, you know, comparison for.
Louis Grenier: Yeah, they don’t even understand it.
Melina Palmer: Right, right. Yeah, yeah.
Louis Grenier: That’s one of the, that’s one of the things I, I come back to very often as well with, with, with the people I help. it’s almost always that, that comes, to mind. It’s that they are so, their identity is so tied to what they do and they are so desperate to stand out, that they think that inventing a new term or, or crafting something very truly original that is so original that you don’t even know what it is is the right way to do so. But I think after, after burning so much money, and burning out myself so many times in the past, you know, you learn to be very pragmatic. And pragmatism tells you that you can’t change people’s minds. You can’t educate people about anything. Right. I mean, unless it takes, it’s going to take years. I mean, try to make a toddler do something. It’s just, you can’t change people’s mind. So, like, just be pragmatic about it. So if you think, if you know that you can’t change people’s mind, what do you do? Do you try to convince them that this new thing that they haven’t heard before is great, or do you instead build a Trojan horse where you enter the gates of the, of their brain by giving them what they think they need first and then you give them what they actually need? Right. So just take a very topical example at the minute with the AI exploding. There’s a lot of talk about in the SEO world, that you need to do LLM SEO. So like, basically not, not SEO anymore, But optimizing for AIs to show your brand. Right. And, if I was to create an SEO agency or something around those line today, I would probably take a gamble in picking that category of, yeah, we’ll help you rank on AI tools, which is what they think they need. But in fact the Trojan horse would then be like, what’s inside of Trojan horse would then be like, good content marketing, good brand building. Yes, we’ll help you rank. But at the end of the day, what matters more is X, Y and Z. Right? So you need to really let go of that ego that thinks you have a superb idea. You need to stop thinking you can create rivers of demand. You know, you can’t create stuff out of thin air. Just pick a river that is already flowing and take a bit of it and channel it towards you. I think that’s the most pragmatic, simple way to see the world.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, well, and I think bringing it full circle to some of what we talked about at the beginning of the conversation here and knowing from the everyone hates marketers perspective of things, right? So there are people that think they don’t want or need marketing, that they hate it, that that’s not what it’s about. They think marketing is just about making something pretty or whatnot, which it is not. And we, those of us who work in marketing know that’s not the case. but if you have people that say that are never going to want to buy marketing. but. And you have the example in the book of someone who was saying, like, hey, it’s more if I talk about it from a business development angle. Like, hey, are we talking about business development here? And they say, oh, yeah, definitely, that we don’t need marketing. And like, great. So the way you can develop your business is by doing these things. And like, I’ll help you with that. And it is marketing. They just want to call it something else and like, that’s okay. and then they’re really happy with what they got. and you don’t have to call it what you think it should be called. if they would like it. If it’s, you know, under this other.
Louis Grenier: Other title again, just let it go. Let it go. You let go of that ego. Right?
Louis Grenier’s Question for Melina
Louis Grenier: Before, before you cut me off, I have a question I’ve been dying to ask you. I’m dying.
Melina Palmer: Okay, do it.
Louis Grenier: You know, that is, I think, is an interesting one because you’ve read the book and thank you so much for spending the time to do so. You are, way more experienced than I am in like behavioral science. You read books about it. You read way more research than I have. Anything in the book that you strongly disagreed with, or at least that have been disproven by science or that is complete BS.
Melina Palmer: I don’t have anything that jumps out at me as something that I read and went. Right, so that’s good.
Louis Grenier: No, that’s good.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. but I don’t. I don’t think so. I think it, like, really, you know, came up in a way that I think it was all interesting and, you know, well presented. So I’ll think on it and I’ll send You some. I’ll go, I’ll revisit and send you something I think is total BS later.
Louis Grenier: Okay, we’ll stick to that answer. That’s great.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, no, I didn’t have anything that popped, out. I think it’s fantastic. It’s well written, it’s applicable, it is usable. It’s got lots of charts and examples for people. I think the way that it’s presented, we can learn along with the stories in a way that is, useful and interesting. And it is funny. It made me laugh along the way. As we said, be prepared for, for swear words with throughout. But, you know, it starts with, There’s a F, you know, in the title. So if you don’t expect it.
Louis Grenier: Again, talking about spices. I mean, I. Look, if you don’t. If you really can’t stick reading the word, the F words anywhere, don’t buy it, please. Like, come on. and also just maybe change your views of the world, because it’s not that bad. It’s just a social construct. if you can get past that, then you’ll enjoy it.
Melina Palmer: Definitely. And I think people will. I enjoyed it very much.
Louis Grenier: Thank you so much.
Melina Palmer: And I enjoyed chatting with you today. So thank you for joining me on the show. For everyone who does want to go get, their copy of the book and to follow you and to learn more, we’ll have links in the show notes. But what’s their best, route to do?
Louis Grenier: So, gonna have to say the word. No, just, just, just search, Stand the F Out. or you can put a star in the U after the F. again, go in the show notes. It’s everywhere at Amazon Audible. I’ve narrated the audiobook myself. it’s a lot of fun if you can stomach my accent. Yeah, just Google it. Whatever else, ask ChatGPT. You’ll find it perfect.
Melina Palmer: Well, like I said, we’ll put the links, in the show notes. And, yeah, great book. Very useful for everyone. I recommend checking it out so that they can stand out and. Yeah, thanks again, Louis, for joining me on the show today.
Louis Grenier: Thank you. Thank you so much for reading the book and those great questions.
Conclusion: Insight Foraging and Amplifying Your Brand
Melina Palmer: Thank you again to Louis Grenier for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today’s conversation? For me, I love the idea of insight foraging. Going out into the world with intention and curiosity, collecting observations from real conversations, comments, and struggles, and then shaping your strategy around what people actually care about and how they share it in their own words. It’s such a powerful, brainy way to think about customer research and opens up things like online reviews to empower brands of any budget. On the flip side, his reminder to be careful about those poisonous insights, the, seductive surface level ideas that seem helpful but actually lead you in the wrong direction. It’s such a great warning for anyone trying to build a thoughtful brand. It’s so easy to get swept up in the tactics that feel flashy or trendy, but pull us away from what really matters. And don’t worry, there are tons of tips and how to’s and charts and things to help you do this and actually apply that within the book. For this and so many others. And talking about triggers and looking at how you can find your monster that the brand is fighting up against. As we think about the Trojan Horse, so many things we talked about, like even that alter ego concept, right? Whether you call it your spicy self or your louder twin, it’s just that version of you that’s a little braver. And I love that reminder that you don’t have to change who you are. You can amplify the parts of you that are ready to stand out and take up some space and know that that version of you might just be the thing that your brand has been waiting for.
Final Thoughts and Next Episode Preview
Melina Palmer: What about you? What did you take away from the episode? What really stood out for you? Was it something about being spicy? Was it the Trojan horse? Was it about foraging for insights? Come share it with me on social media. I’d love to hear your biggest aha moment. You’ll find me as The Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It’s all waiting for you in the app you’re listening to and at, thebrainybusiness.com/533 and thank you again to Louis Grenier for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for for another brainy episode of The Brainy Business Podcast. It’s going to be a lot of fun. You don’t want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to The Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help business be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.
