Welcome to The Brainy Business Podcast
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 536 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today’s episode, I’m excited to reintroduce you to Nancy Harhut, author of Using Behavioral Science in Marketing. Ready?
Melina Palmer: Let’s get started.
Announcer: You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now here’s your host, Melina Palmer.
Reintroducing Nancy Harhut: Behavioral Science in Marketing
Melina Palmer: Hello.
Melina Palmer: Hello everyone.
Melina Palmer: My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. When your customer opens an email, scans a landing page or walks past a product on the shelf, what exactly nudges them to act? Is it logic, emotion, a, tiny shift in phrasing, a well placed default, or something else entirely? Today we we’re revisiting a powerful conversation with Nancy Harhut, co founder and chief creative officer at HBT Marketing and author of the wonderful book Using Behavioral Science in Marketing which was just getting ready to release when we spoke before. And now that it’s been out for a few years, it’s won all sorts of awards including from the American Marketing association, the Axiom Book Awards, Chanticleer International Book Awards and National Indie Excellence Awards, Readers Favorite Book Awards, New York City Big Book Award and more. Congrats Nancy on all your well deserved success. Nancy and I have gotten to know each other over the years, meeting in person when we were both speaking at events like south by Southwest and Social Media Marketing World. She is smart, generous and deeply thoughtful in how she translates behavioral science into real world marketing strategy. Whether you are a seasoned behavioral marketer or just starting out, this episode and her book are packed with examples that show how much small changes can lead to big results really quickly. Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know that there are links in the show, notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch and more. It’s all within the app you’re listening to and @thebrainybusiness.com 536.
Chatting with Nancy Harhut
Melina Palmer: Now let’s jump right in. Nancy Harhut, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
Nancy Harhut: Thank you so much Melina. I’m very happy to be here.
Melina Palmer: Oh yes, so so excited to have you with us. As you and I were kind of ah, chatting about in this pre call, as is often the case with guests that I am honored to have on the show, we feel like I know you so well because we’ve had lots of little chats on LinkedIn or wherever else. And then. And I think I believe you, were in the audience for a talk I was giving for a university in South Africa even. I was like, hey, are you in South Africa? But maybe that was, just more that you saw. I was talking about that I was doing it and he showed up, which was super cool. so this, but this is the first time we’re actually seeing each other and speaking, which is always fun.
Nancy Harhut: Yes, it is. And I’m very psyched. I mean, I’d love to follow you all over the world listening, but it’s great to actually be able to speak to you now too.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Nancy Harhut’s Journey into Behavioral Science
Melina Palmer: Well, for everyone who is just meeting you here for the first time, can you share a little bit about your background, who you are, and how you found yourself in this amazing world of behavioral science?
Nancy Harhut: Absolutely. Sure. So, again, my name is Nancy Harhut. I’m the co founder and chief creative officer of HBT Marketing. And HBT stands for Human Behavior Triggers. And we named the company HBT Marketing because what we specialize in is, taking marketing best practices and adding to them behavioral science, so that our clients have the advantage, or the double advantage of having best practices and behavioral science deployed for them, which just makes it more likely that their customers and prospects will do what they want them to do.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. And so how long ago did you found HBT Marketing?
Nancy Harhut: It’s about five and a half years ago. prior to that I was in the agency world, but working for other, other agencies. Hill, Holiday, Mullen, Digitas.
Melina Palmer: And as far as your interest in behavioral sciences and factoring that in, I believe you’ve done some research and projects and things, that has incorporated that. Can you talk a little bit about that background and how, how you found the behavioral sciences at all?
Nancy Harhut: Sure, sure. So I could probably trace it back to reading, Robert Cialdini’s book, Influence, the Science of the Psychology of Persuasion, which was phenomenal. And I suspect, a lot of got interested in behavioral science might have done it that way. But, I read that and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so applicable to marketing if you think about it. In marketing we’re trying to get people to behave a certain way, get them to take a particular action. And behavioral science is all about how people decide to do things, why they do what they do. And just began to read anything I could get my hands on, Dan Ariely and Cialdini and Sunstein and Thaler, really anything, and just start to extract Pieces, of research and principles that I thought would apply very handily to marketing. And, then I began to try to actually use them. All right, let’s see what will happen if we test this out and test that out. And things began to work, which was great. And then clients were asking for more and more of it. And, the next thing you know, it just kind of, you know, took off in that direction and I went from being a marketer to being a behavioral science marketer.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Melina Palmer: And I mean, really finding that pretty early on in, like I even said from my own book and everything, the first one, what your customer wants and can’t tell you. When I was doing my master’s and looking around, there just wasn’t much in that, behavioral science, marketing. And I would say even still today, there, there aren’t very many of us that do work in that space. So one of the questions I know I get a lot is for, and I’m sure, and it’s from listeners of the show that look at these types of journeys and then say, I, I wish I could do something like that.
The Magnetic Middle and Selling Insurance
Melina Palmer: so when there is someone who was first in a lot of ways, I always like to ask, you know, what gave you the confidence to do that and what advice do you have for someone else who wants to do something similar?
Nancy Harhut: I love marketing. I, you know, I grew up as a copywriter, became a creative, director, and, you know, ultimately now co founded my, my own boutique agency. But kind of, I grew up in marketing and I absolutely love it. And I could find that might give my clients an advantage, give them an extra edge, was something that I wanted to explore. And this just made so much sense to me. So when I started to try some of these principles, and they began to work, I thought, why not? Why not keep running with it? I had one client, they sold, get ready for this. It’s going to be really exciting. They sold insurance to dentists. So we had a double whammy there. We’re going to talk about insurance, we’re going to talk about dentists. But they sold insurance to dentists. And if you’ve ever tried to sell life insurance to somebody, it’s hard, right? It is not an easy thing to do. And if you can convince someone to buy insurance once, that is a major achievement. And what they do is they check it off their list and they have no interest in ever revisiting that idea. Right. It’s like, I bought it, I’m done. Don’t even want to think about it again. And this particular insurance company knew that every few years you really should reevaluate your insurance because things change. Your practice grows, you, you know, your family grows, whatever. And you really should, you should really kind of reevaluate things. But it was next to impossible to get the dentist to reevaluate. You know, they bought once. That was huge. They just shut down. you know, anytime the company approached them again, and the company would have the statistics and they would have all the reasons, but people didn’t want to hear it. And I had read, in Cialdini’s book about the magnetic middle, and I thought, you know, I think we can use this. So we sent a message out to the dentist and we’re saying, you know, it’s a good time for you to reconsider buying more insurance. And we put a chart in it. On the left end of the chart was $0, which is the least amount of insurance you could have. And on the far right was 3 million, which was the most that the company sold. And we showed people where they were, and it was always left of center. And we didn’t expect that people would see that and go, oh my gosh, I’ve got to go buy $3 million of insurance. I’ve got to, you know, increase my policy to 3 million. But we did think that what would happen is when people found themselves left of center, they would want to move closer to the center. And that’s the whole idea of the pull of the magnetic middle. It just, you know, it feels safer there. You don’t necessarily want to be out on the bleeding edge, but you don’t want to be left behind. You know, let’s move towards the center. And so we, we drop that in to our messaging and we got like a triple digit lift. The client still talks about it. And this was years ago that we did it. And I was just chatting with her. She’s in a different company now. And, I’m still working with her, but, you know, in a different context. And she just recently brought it up. But, you know, it’s amazing when you see these things and you start to try them out and they work, you just want to keep doing it. And clients, when they get a taste of it, are like, yeah, I want some more of that. You know, in fact, you know, a lot of clients would say, like, forget about testing, you know, the original in this. Let’s just put it all in this. And, you know, which is great and flattering, but as you say in your own book, not the thing to do, you know, let’s test so that we really know what’s working and what doesn’t work and, you know, what the, what the lifts are. But you start to use this and, and when it works, that gives you the confidence to try it again, to try other things, to keep branching out. And, you know, will everything work? No. Is there a silver bullet? No. But the incremental gains that you get when something does work are well worth it. And it makes perfect sense to, you know, to build on the marketing best practices by adding the behavioral science.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, absolutely. And what I love about that example, and really I would say all of the examples in the book, your book, which is using behavioral science in marketing. Very tangible title for what we’re, you know, here to do. Right. Applicable title for an applicable book. I like that your examples are very tangible, very clear, very easy, and just a small little thing. And being able to note something like that, left of center. I like how thorough and thoughtful the examples are. You know, so it’s showing that you went through a lot of analysis and figuring out, okay, what is it that we’re trying to do? What, do we want someone to do?
Melina Palmer: What are they doing now?
Melina Palmer: What are the tools at our disposal? How might we incorporate various principles and like you said, testing so you’re able to show it had a lift of X percent or whatever it is when you don’t know and you just think, I bet that worked. That seemed anecdotally like more calls than we usually get. You don’t know if there was something else that made it. So everybody, you know, called in this time versus another time. So it definitely is useful. And people, you can visualize that left of center, right. You get what we’re talking about there. So I’m definitely linking to my interview with Robert Cialdini in the show notes, so people can learn a little bit about that. You also mentioned Dan Ariely. So that’ll be in there as well as,
Social Proof in Action: Voluntary Benefits
Melina Palmer: I don’t have something specifically on the magnetic middle at least yet, but the closest sort of concept there, I would say is like relativity, right. Being able to see kind of where we are contextually. And what I think is really interesting about that is typically I would pair something like that, that relativity with a, herding and a social proof. And I think a lot of people would look for that, right? Where it would say, you are like most people are here, you are here, and so you want to make a move. But like you said, going from the zero, the three million. It’s not saying that, you know, this is where you rank. Like, Most people have 3 million and you only have 500,000 or whatever it is. Right. It just is an interesting approach that doesn’t. It feels like it’s got a little bit of that hurting social proof, even though you’re not comparing it to another human person or the.
Melina Palmer: The bulk of other people.
Melina Palmer: And what they’re doing, though you could have. If this person was considerably below. And more people like them are here, that’s definitely an extra little nudge to make them want to jump. Have you tested anything like that over the years either?
Melina Palmer: Yeah.
Nancy Harhut: Yeah. No, you’re absolutely right. Like, if. If most people had what we thought was too little insurance, then the idea of social proof wouldn’t quite get there. But this magnetic middle. Or I. I guess there’s another phrase called the Goldilocks principle, you know, so that seemed to work, but with, social proof, that is. That is incredibly powerful. We had one client that was selling, voluntary benefits. So we’re back to insurance again. But. But, voluntary benefits are, you know, you go to work and they give you your, you know, your certain package of benefits, but then you could buy more. You can buy more insurance. You can buy cancer insurance or accidental death and disability or whatever it is, but that comes out of your own paycheck. And that is the crux of the problem. Well, that’s one of the cruxes of the problem. You know, one is, you know, like, do I even need these insurances? And then the other is, it feels like, your paycheck gets reduced because typically the company will take the, you know, the monthly payment out of your paycheck. So even though you’re purchasing the insurance, it feels like your paycheck just got reduced. So it’s hard a lot of times to convince people that they should be, you know, buying one of these voluntary insurance policies. And, one of my clients came to us and said, look, we know we want to use behavioral science. We know there’s got to be a way to get people to, where we want them to, which is to consider these very, you know, appropriate and valuable policies for them. So we use behavioral science. We sent, both emails and direct mail, and we tapped into social proof. We said something like, you know, Melina, women like you in their 30s who are, working, you know, who have successful careers in marketing, and are making a good living, protect themselves and their families with, you know, These two kinds of insurance, and we slotted in the right ones for that profile. And the campaign did very well. I think we had a 19% increase in participation, which is people actually purchasing a policy. And, the increase in the average premium for policy was a 16% lift. So social proof really works. Because if you don’t really know, do I need this? Or what do people like me do? Seeing something like that, where it was so specific and it was the person’s name and their age and their industry and the idea that they were working hard to earn a good living, you’re like, yeah, that’s me. I’m like, those people. So if they buy this, perhaps I should consider it too. So social proof can be incredibly powerful, right?
Melina Palmer: Yeah, absolutely.
The Genesis of the Book: Using Behavioral Science in Marketing
Melina Palmer: So in your new book, you have broken it into chapters that are categorizing kind of by concept, which is a, layout after my own heart, because, of course, my book does something similar. can you talk a little bit about why you wrote the book, and then we’ll get into some of the details and examples and things that are in there.
Nancy Harhut: Sure, sure. well, so the short answer is, honestly, Kogan Page approached me. They, saw that I was speaking at south by Southwest. They saw the topic I was speaking on, which was behavioral science. And, they said, would you like to write a book? And that’s kind of hard to say no to. But I think the longer answer is, I, do a lot of speaking at marketing conferences, industry conferences, and for the last, I don’t know, five or six years, people would say to me, you know, do you have a book? I want to buy your book. You know, when, you know, when you’re writing a book, clients would say the same thing. And, you know, the first one or two people that say something, you kind of go, ah, ah, that’s really sweet. But, you know, but several people, you know, more than several people, start to ask. And I began to realize behavioral science and marketing works, right? It absolutely works. And people, you know, who go to conferences, they can hear me talk about it. People who become my clients can also benefit from it. But if you write a book, so many more people can benefit from it. And if I start to detail, you know, very specifically, here’s. Here’s the principle, here’s a little bit of the science behind it. Just enough so that you. You get it without, you know, having to have a science degree. And then here are some very practical ways to apply it. Here are some case studies where it’s already been done. Here are my examples of ways you might want to consider using it. you know, here are even some personal anecdotes of how this principle manifests itself outside of business. For example, it would just, you know, it would be a very accessible, be a very accessible, very hands on kind of a handbook for anyone who might want to benefit from injecting some behavioral science into their ah, into their marketing. So it just seemed like everything converged. I was suddenly at a point where I decided I really do have something to say, something that people could really benefit from. And then Kogan page over in the UK reached out to me and well, you know what a British accent can do to someone. Right? Sure. So there we are.
Melina Palmer: Awesome.
Melina Palmer: And yeah, that is definitely. There are lots of people that want to write books and then go, how do I even find a publisher? It is not a super common path to have the publisher find you. So bravo. I think it’s a testament to the work that you are doing that you know, spoke for itself in a way that people wanted more. So congratulations on that. And I, I really do. You know, I appreciate that you had, had reached out to me and asked about an endorsement which of course I was happy to provide. And it just, it flows in such a way. I love the short chapters. I, I enjoy reading like Dan Brown because of that. Right. Which is sort of the thing everybody says, but it gives you just just what you need to get a little bit and then keep go, you know, learn the next thing and you feel like you can, you get some confidence with what you can go and apply from there.
Filling a Gap: Practical Behavioral Science for Marketers
Melina Palmer: So with your book, was there I mean you talked a little bit about the, the request and the need that you saw, but was there a specific gap you were looking to fill in the way that you structured the book? Is there a, something where you said, well, you know, I really want my book to do this thing that other books aren’t really doing, whether in behavioral sciences or marketing or a combination that you really think that yours fills.
Nancy Harhut: Yeah, what I wanted to do was really create something that was going to be short on science and long, if you will, on applicability. marketers are busy and they’re always looking at that next deadline and trying to hit it and they don’t have the time to read all the research out there to dive into a topic that might be interesting to them like behavioral science. Marketers are juggling so many different things that they literally, you know, they don’t have the time to do this. And I thought if I could put together a book that really was very practical, very actionable, easy, easy to read, easy to get through, but easy to apply, that would actually fill a gap. Because it’s hard to stay on top of all the research. And then even if you have the time to do it, it’s hard to then step back and think about, okay, now what does that mean and how might that be applied? And I thought I was kind of in a unique position in that I’ve spent years working in agencies, working for different clients at&t. American Express, Seagram’s, UnitedHealthcare, you know, a range of different clients, big and small. So I’ve got the agency perspective, the marketing perspective, and I just happen to have this passion for behavioral science. So I enjoy on my, you know, sitting on the beach reading these books, you know, and. Or flying on airplanes reading these books. I enjoy, you know, digesting the material and consuming the content. And for me, it was fun to read it and to start to, draw the links between, gee, that study or that principle and what, you know, my clients are trying to accomplish and some of the challenges that they’re facing and how, you know, how the two could intersect, how the behavioral science could intersect with the client challenge and possibly solve it. So, God, if I write a book from that perspective, there are very few others out there like that. And, it could be very beneficial for people.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, for sure.
The Structure of the Book: Emotional and Rational Thinking
Melina Palmer: And when you chose the concepts to include and the order to put them in, was there, specific intentional flow to that, as far as, you know, the path you think people should take? Is there always, you know, loss aversion comes up at the beginning for you here. Was that just, you know, an easy one to start with and it just sort of happened or, you know, how’d that come together?
Nancy Harhut: Yeah, well, you know, I started. I think my very first chapter was, the idea of emotional and rational thinking and how most people make decisions for emotional reasons and then they justify them later with rational reasons. So I thought, I’m going to start there because that’s a, you know, a good foundational, chapter. And then from there I started to talk about some of the other behavioral science principles that one could argue are, pretty strongly linked to emotion. Loss aversion, you know, that feeling of loss. Social proof, the feeling of confidence that you get when other people are doing something similar to you, to what you’re going to do. Or, you know, reciprocity, the, guilt that you feel if Someone does something for you and you don’t return the favor. So that provided a nice springboard. I figured I’d start with a very basic emotional, rational thing, then dig into some of the emotions. and then from there I just tried to add on things that I thought made sense or were logical next steps as people had that foundation. But I also mentioned in the book that people are free to jump in and out of any chapter that they want. They don’t. I was talking about choice architecture, and I said my choice architecture was to set these chapters up this way. And I think, you know, it makes sense. I did it for a reason. However, I’m totally aware of the fact that not everyone is going to read the chapters as I’ve written them. You can parachute in and out as you please, and that’s fine too. I set it up the way I thought, it would make the most sense. But if someone had a particular interest in something or in a couple of different things, they could go in and out and, you know, read any chapter almost as a standalone. And I do reference in particular chapters as, you do in yours. Throwbacks to other, you know, other chapters. and I will say I reserved reading your book until I finished writing mine. So I wanted to. I wanted to buy it and read it like I got it. I got too much on my plate. I’ve got to get this written first. So I’m saying, oh, like you do. Like you do. I don’t want you to think I stole your idea. I didn’t.
Melina Palmer: Oh, no. But I appreciate it.
Nancy Harhut: We both came to the same conclusion that it’d be easier for people to read that way. I think.
Melina Palmer: Yes. No, I appreciate that. And, all is well right there. It’s more good books in the world is.
Melina Palmer: Is always a positive thing.
Melina Palmer: But people will ask me all the time. This is a little behind the scenes, secret thing that not everybody knows, but I very intentionally don’t listen to a. Of podcasts, and particularly podcasts that are on behavioral science and applying it or whatnot, because I have an audience that likes hearing me talk. Right. And if I listen to everyone else, then you get like, ooh, that’s a good idea.
Melina Palmer: Or, oh, I bet, m. People.
Melina Palmer: Must want this format, this whatever. And I don’t want that shiny object of feeling like I have to be like the hidden brain or like the Freakonomics podcast or, anyone else, because people listen to them for those.
Melina Palmer: Reasons and people listen to me for this reason.
Melina Palmer: And, you know, we’re all good. So I appreciate all of, of what you’re saying there for, for sure.
Nancy Harhut: Well, I think I speak for, not only myself, but many, many, if not all of the listeners saying, we appreciate you.
Melina Palmer: Oh, thank you.
Melina Palmer: That’s very, very kind of you to say. I appreciate it.
Autonomy Bias: A Favorite Concept
Melina Palmer: So as we jump in to some of the content, what I, what I would love is, say, do you have a favorite concept and, or story you, you know, you shared some good stuff from that insurance space already. But if you were going to teach the listeners one thing, you know, something that you think really resonates and is valuable, what would your choice be?
Nancy Harhut: So one of the, one of the concepts that I didn’t discover until relatively recently was the idea of autonomy bias. And it’s not that it hasn’t been out there. It just didn’t quite make it into my little, you know, sphere of reading and research. And the idea of autonomy bias is this idea that, you know, we’re all kind of, born with this innate desire to have some control over ourselves or our environment. you know, scientists maybe call it agency. Although I come from marketing and agency means something else. It still employs me. But, but yeah, this idea of having some agency, some control over yourself in your environment, and it’s a very deep seated need. And closely related to that is the idea of choice. Because if you have a choice, that means you have some kind of control, you have some, you know, some kind of agency. And so as I started to read more and more about that, I came upon two studies I thought were really interesting. One was out of Tulane University. And they found that if you present somebody with, a couple of options as opposed to just one thing, you know, whether it’s a proposal, whether it’s two levels of service, whether it’s two different products, if you give them a choice, they’re much more likely to make a buying decision in the moment than if they only have one thing in front of them. Because, you know, think about it. You have one option and you think, oh, okay, yeah, well, you know, it’s out of context. I don’t have anything to compare it to, so I’ll sleep on it, or I’ll do a little research, or I’ll ask my friends, or I’ll ask my spouse, whatever it is. The question is really, do I or do I not want to buy this now? But if there were two options, the question just automatically transforms to which of these two do I want? You know, you have context, you have something to Compare it to. And I thought, that is phenomenal, and that can be so, so helpful for marketers. And then the other thing that I found was, a researcher named Chris Carpenter did a deep dive into, something known as the BYIF technique, the but you are free technique. So there’s been a lot written about this, but basically, you can ask someone to do something, and then if you follow that up by saying but you are free, or words to that effect, but it’s up to you, but the choice is yours. it makes people. It can make people up to twice as likely to do what you’re asking them to do. And I thought, wow, that is phenomenal. You know, we can start. And it’s a little counterintuitive when you think about it, but we can start using that in our marketing. So I really started to love this idea of autonomy bias and look for ways that I could inject it into work, that I was doing for my clients. And then as I was writing the book, it dawned on me that, I don’t know, back in the 80s or 90s, a creative director that I was working for actually used autonomy bias in such an incredible way. we had been working for AT&T at the time, and this was when the breakup happened. And it used to be like, AT and T was the game in town, and that was it. And it was a monopoly. And then Judge Green came along and broke things up. And of course, AT&T wanted to retain as much of their customer base as they could, but people had to choose. Do I want to stay? Do I want to go? Do I want to try someone else? So we were writing all of these direct mail packages trying to get people to stick with at&t. And one day, my creative director, Frank Parrish, comes in, and he’s so happy because he has finally cracked the nut on the lead for his letter. And it was something like, you have to make a decision very soon, and if you don’t, someone will make one for you. And this was a B2B thing. It was going to, business customers of AT&T. And the piece got, like, a 38.6% response rate. It was phenomenal. It did really, really well. And I started to think about that, and I’m like, oh, my gosh, all those years ago, I’m sure he wasn’t thinking, oh, I need to use autonomy bias. But he kind of zeroed in on that basic truth that what business owner big or would want to be told, this is what you’re going to do, you know, we’ve made the choice for you. So when it was framed, I guess in that way, you know, like you’ve got to make a choice and if you don’t, someone else is going to make it for you. That’s what got people to actually respond, you know, when before they’ve been ignoring the messages and putting them off to the side and not really bothering. So these days I’m really high on autonomy bias. It’s become, one of my favorite behavioral science principles.
Melina Palmer: Fun. Yeah. It doesn’t have an episode of the Brainy business yet. So, we’ll put it in the. To make an episode on list. That, which I’m sure you can appreciate, grows longer every single day. Because I get excited about so many things.
Nancy Harhut: I can, I can only imagine. I can only imagine. Although I will tell you, I did use autonomy bias. In addition to Frank doing it so many years ago, I did it relatively recently with a cable service. And you know how people have, you know, cable TV and it was satellite TV actually, but it was the idea that, you know, you’re paying for all these channels you never listen to or never watch. Right. And people are tired of. So they zeroed in on that and they created a much different kind of a program where you could start with a basic foundation and then you could customize your channel lineup. And I was like, oh, this is all about autonomy buys. And we had a 52% increase over the the control based on that. So, not only did it work all those years ago for telecom, it’s, it’s working for satellite TV now.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Melina Palmer: Well, and I hope everyone who’s listening, you know where we end up with, decent amount of people that are in that marketing space that end up being guests on the show, partially because those are the, the books that are being written right now or the research that’s being done, partially because of my background in that space, you know, who, who I end up seeing and, and whatnot. But I, you know, it’s not just for marketing. Right. These are things. And you know, with my second book being about change management and it, employee interactions and any sort of, there’s applicability across so much more than just creating an advertisement for what it is that you’re talking about. And you know, as I say on that change management side, you don’t need money to be exchanging hands. You still are needing someone to buy in on whatever idea you’re selling them, whether it’s getting, you know, your three year old to Brush their teeth or it’s you know, getting extra budget for the coming year. Right.
Behavioral Science Beyond Marketing
Melina Palmer: It’s, it’s all that same sort of principle.
Nancy Harhut: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And we do, we see behavioral science being used in education, we see it in politics, we see it in health care. there was the research that came out. It was, it was, I think it was Katie Milkman and some other researchers about getting people to get vaccines. And I think they did the research before COVID hit. But it was about trying to get people to get a vaccine, you know, to help their health. And I think the, out of everything they tested, the winning phrase was, you know, we have a vaccine reserved for you or you know, your vaccine is waiting. But but you’re absolutely right. I mean I love marketing, but there are other arguably more noble professions where behavioral science can be absolutely impactful. and just, you know, just negotiating with people like you said, whether it’s your, your boss or your your employee or your 3 year old or your spouse, you know, it is important.
Melina Palmer: Absolutely.
Melina Palmer: And yes, that was Katie, Milkman and some of the research that was done out of the Behavior Change for Good initiative at Wharton. I will link to both my interview with Katie and that particular research paper on vaccines which I believe was done and I’ll correct in at the end if I’m wrong here, but I believe they partnered with Walmart and we’re working on flu vaccines and getting that to increase and it published during the pandemic.
Melina Palmer: Of course.
Melina Palmer: Very timely because vaccines became a whole new conversation. and, and taking that insight from that, but amazing and wonderful work out of the Behavior Change for good initiative for sure. And we will definitely be linking to that in the show notes for everyone to learn a little bit about that.
Solving for Attendance: The Power of Defaults
Melina Palmer: So what’s another concept now you get, you get a, another story, another thing that you’re interested in. you know something, if you have anything, I always love examples where you can say something along the lines of ex client came to me and they had this problem, or at least they thought that was the problem. And then we helped them to see that this was really the problem. And this is what we did and this is what happened. So if anything like that comes to mind, you know, those are always, I think the most interesting ones for people where they’re able to see themselves in those sorts of examples. And if you don’t have one that.
Melina Palmer: Perfectly feels like it fits in there.
Melina Palmer: And there’s some other story that’s just hanging out in your brain. Share that one.
Melina Palmer: Whatever it is, the audience will love.
Melina Palmer: To hear it, and so will I.
Nancy Harhut: Well, that is. It’s a good question. I’m trying to. I think I will go back to the client with the voluntary benefits. And they, you know, they’re trying to get people to go to these meetings at, their company, their employer, where they could learn about the various insurance policies that they could purchase and then purchase one if that’s what they wanted. So they thought that, you know, we need to get, more people to the meetings. And so we need to do a better job of describing the meetings. We need to do a better job of explaining the benefits. We need to do a better job of making these meetings engaging or fun. And so they were running through all these different ways that they could entice more people to come to the meeting. And what we ended up doing is we employed a little bit of choice architecture. So instead of just sending out that email saying, this is why you should be there, please book your appointment. You know, put it on your calendar, sign up now. Instead of doing that, we flip things around and we told them, we’re like, hey, you know, Melina, this is so important that we’ve scheduled your meeting for you, and it’s on this date at this time. And, just, you know, click here to get it into your calendar. And then, of course, a little bit further down, there was a link that said, oh, I need to, you know, click here. If you need to reschedule, you can pick a different date. But that delivered a, 418% increase in attendance. So it wasn’t about. About making the, you know, the meeting sound more relevant or more interesting or, you know, about convincing people, you know, why they should go. It was just changing the default. Instead of, you know, the. The onus being on the employee to say, yes, I’ve got to sign up for this meeting. I got to make sure that I go. We just made it easy. So the. The path of least resistance was to accept the meeting. And it was actually more difficult to. To get out of it, to say, oh, no, I don’t want to go. I’m going to reschedule it. You know, so we. We just made the default the thing that we wanted people to do, and, that was the way we solved the problem. So the problem wasn’t, you know, let’s make it more interesting to go to a meeting. It was just, let’s make it easier to go to the meeting. So I think Maybe. Maybe that would, would answer your question. I hope so.
Melina Palmer: Oh, yeah, No, I love that example. And it is, I had already made a note that I wanted to link to the episode on sludge. And so in this case, removing some sludge to make it, like you said, easier where. And there’s an episode on defaults too, so that’ll be in there. But being able to make it so again, it’s. It’s harder to do anything else like that. You. When you become the status quo, it makes it to where you’re much more likely to have people just sort of fall in line and do the thing. I forget if it was a Dan Ariely example or from somewhere else, but.
Melina Palmer: I know someone in one of these.
Melina Palmer: Many M Books books has an example that they’re talking about how they were part of a, blood drive and trying to get people on campus to sign up and go donate blood. And the author was actually on the team of people that was recruiting people and they themselves had not even gone to go and do the blood drive yet. And part of it was didn’t actually know the room where, like where it was on campus and sort of had heard about it but didn’t know and then had said, you know, someone came into the office and said, oh, I’m on my way over there now, do you want to come with me? And then you can see where it is and whatever. And so having the person to alleviate that pressure walk over with you, it’s harder to say no in that aspect. And now you’ve been. And it’s easier, you know, for the next sort of time. So that example came to mind. And if that wasn’t Dan, if that.
Melina Palmer: Was you, someone else who’s listening or.
Melina Palmer: You know who it was, let me know and we’ll remember. I. It’s an example I read years ago, so I don’t fully remember where it came from, but thought it. It stuck with me.
Melina Palmer: Right.
Nancy Harhut: Yeah, I hadn’t heard that one, but that’s what I love about your podcast. I always learn something new, so that’s good.
Melina Palmer: Awesome.
Melina Palmer: Well, I love that. And hopefully I’m sure. Actually, I won’t even say hopefully. I am sure that everyone listening got lots of new knowledge in hearing you talk about your and your new book and would love if you can share for them, for everyone who is now so excited to go get their own copy of using behavioral science and marketing and wanting to learn more about you and to connect, what are their best routes to do that.
Nancy Harhut: Sure. Thank you for Asking.
Connecting with Nancy Harhut and HBT Marketing
Nancy Harhut: so again, my name is Nancy Harhut and the book is, Using Behavioral Science in Marketing: Drive Customer Action and Loyalty by Prompting Instinctive Responses. It is available at Kogan Page as well as, on Amazon, Target, Barnes and Noble. And of course I would love to hear from people, you know, whether or not you want to buy the book. I would just love to hear from people, all of your listeners. So you can reach me, you can follow me on Twitter. I’m @NHarhut. you can find me on LinkedIn, you can find me on Facebook, and you can also visit the website of the agency that I Co founded, HBT Marketing. We’re @hbtmktg.com and we’ve got, lots of, interviews and articles and podcasts about behavioral science and marketing there that, that people are welcome to peruse. So we’d love to hear from anybody.
Melina Palmer: Fantastic.
Melina Palmer: Yes. And so everyone, please do. I always love to give a little bit of, you know, Twitter love to our guests. So you have their N Harhut H A R H U T and tag me as well. Hebrainy Biz B I Z Let us know what, what tidbit stuck out for you the most. What’s maybe an action you’re going to take, even just to say thanks, Nancy.
Melina Palmer: That was nice.
Melina Palmer: I’ve never known anyone who creates any sort of content putting things out into the world.
Melina Palmer: It takes a lot to write a.
Melina Palmer: Book and it is a scary process where you’re just waiting for the world to shun you, waiting for that, the other, you know, shoe to fall in the world. So having people out there to say, I appreciate you and you’re doing good work is I. I’ve never known anyone to say, I don’t like that. Right. So it’s always a good thing. So please do give a shout out. And then again, Nancy, thank you so much for joining me on the show and congratulations again on your first book.
Nancy Harhut: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Key Takeaways from the Conversation
Melina Palmer: Thank you again to Nancy Harhut for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today’s conversation? For me, in addition to discussing fascinating principles like autonomy bias or the magnetic middle, I’m always impressed by Nancy’s dedication to understanding and using behavioral science with her clients. And you know, I love when anything is assembled to be practical, actionable, easy to read and easy to apply. That’s a win in my book. Nancy’s work is a great reminder that behavioral science isn’t just about sprinkling in.
Melina Palmer: A cognitive bias here.
Melina Palmer: And there’s customer it’s about strategic empathy, understanding what your customer is going through in the moment you’re asking them to act and making their path as brain friendly as possible. I also love that she has such a focus on testing with her clients. It can be hard to get clients to agree to do tests sometimes, and especially to get the follow through when things get busy. It’s tempting to fall in love with a great idea and just run with it. But her insistence on validating every tactic, no matter how promising, is a powerful takeaway. Because when you test, you learn. Things will surprise you. And when you learn, your business can grow. So here’s my question for you. What’s one customer moment? An email, checkout page or sales call where you could make it just a little easier for someone to say yes? What’s the next test you will run to make that even just a little more possible? Come share it with me on social media. You’ll find me as the, Brainy biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links for my top related past episodes and books including, of course, Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, ways to get in touch with Nancy and myself, and more.
Looking Forward to Future Episodes
Announcer: It’s all waiting for you in the app you’re listening to and at, the brainybusiness.com 536 and thank you again to Nancy Harhut for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Thursday for my conversation with Richard Shotten and MichaelAaron Flicker discussing their book Hacking the Human Mind. It’s going to be a lot of fun. You don’t want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me. And remember to be be thoughtful.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.
