The Psychology of Packaging with Matt Salem
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 560 of the Brainy Business: Understanding the psychology of why people buy.
In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Matt Salem, co-author of Unpacked: Predict Packaging that Sells. Ready? Let’s get started.
Announcer: You are listening to the Brainy Business podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here’s your host, Melina Palmer.
Melina Palmer: Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business podcast.
Today we’re talking about packaging and more specifically how packaging influences pricing, sales, and choice. At the moment decisions are made, packaging is one of those things people often believe doesn’t affect them very much. They’ll say they focus on the product itself or on the price or on quality, but not the box it comes in. And yet, decades of behavioral science research show that packaging plays a critical role in whether something is noticed, understood, and ultimately selected.
As organizations look for faster ways to predict what will sell, often using AI-driven tools, it becomes especially important to understand what those predictions are built on. Data quality, behavioral relevance, and real shopper behavior make a difference in whether insights are useful or misleading.
Today, I’m excited to introduce you to Matt Salem. Matt is an SVP at Behaviorally and has spent more than 20 years studying shopper behavior at the point of purchase. He’s also the co-author of Unpacked, which explores how behavioral science, large-scale data, and predictive modeling can be used to evaluate and improve packaging performance.
As you listen to this episode, I invite you to consider this: How often are decisions about packaging, pricing, or presentation made based on assumptions rather than evidence of how people actually behave—and what might be possible if you did the opposite?
Before we get into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It’s all within the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/560. Now let’s jump right in. Matt Salem, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
Matt Salem: Melina, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, absolutely. It’s always fun where you’ve interviewed me before, but I haven’t interviewed you before. And I bet there are many people in the audience that definitely know you and the company you work for. But for everyone who doesn’t yet know you, can you share a little bit about yourself, your background, and the work that you do?
Matt Salem: Sure, would love to. So, it’s definitely great to be on with you again. And I would say that I definitely feel it as you felt it. It’s weird being on the other side, but it’s cool at the same time.
Matt Salem here from Behaviorally. I am an SVP on the Customer Success team. I’ve been with Behaviorally for well over 20 years at this point. Behaviorally is the industry leader when it comes to helping clients understand the impact of shopper merchandising and packaging at the point of purchase, whether that be in-store or digital. And we also help our clients understand path to purchase as well. So those are the three key areas that we play in.
Melina Palmer: Perfect. And I of course know at least more than the average person why packaging matters. But for people who are still a little bit skeptical—I know packaging, I almost said it’s gotten a “bad rap” over the years, which is just the worst of puns, but I feel good about it, so I’m going to stick with it—that it’s like, “It’s just the box. It doesn’t matter. It’s just the box.” Help prove that wrong.
Matt Salem: Sure, sure. Well, I mean that is something that comes across sometimes: “Hey, it’s just protecting the product inside. All I really care about is what’s inside.” And that always reminds me of a funny story if I may.
When I first started, and this goes back to the very beginning of my research career, I sat in the back of qualitative research and a shopper made a comment along the lines of, “Oh, well, I don’t really care about the packaging. I just buy it because of what’s inside.” And my heart sank and I was like, “Wow, this is terrible. I can’t believe that this person just said that.”
But we all know that that’s not really what happens during the shopping experience. And the packaging is, in fact, critical to the shopping experience. One of the many reasons why it’s critical is because it’s that last defense for sale for the product inside. So it really is the “silent salesperson,” as they say, at the shelf. Again, whether that’s in your grocery store, in a big-box store, mass merchandising, or online, it really does speak and tell a story to the shopper and it explains why that product inside is the best product for them. So it’s critical as a marketing tool for any business that has packaging at the point of sale.
Melina Palmer: Right. And even where people may consciously think that it doesn’t impact them, it’s the same thing I always sort of joke in talks, you know, where it’s like that person who says, “Oh, I never pay attention to those online ads. They don’t have any impact on me.” It’s like, yes, they do. They are influencing you. There’s plenty of research to show it. So while that person said this, it didn’t derail your career choice. You didn’t bail. Right?
Contrast and the 4S Framework
Melina Palmer: So what are some things that you can share where packaging has been impactful? Like, what are things to be looking out for? And of course, it can be something from the book, but just even things earlier on.
I always like the example of toothpaste. There was—and I’m now forgetting which brand—but whichever one came out with the really sparkly, like first kind of metallic box. And their sales go up because you noticed the box even though it was the same stuff. That’s one that I use as an example too. And then if everyone has metallic boxes, it doesn’t stand out anymore, so it doesn’t have the same impact. So you have to think about context and all these things. But you can speak about all this much better than me.
Matt Salem: Yeah, no, sure. But you’re absolutely right on point. And I think the one word that I would use to describe that dynamic is contrast. And when you can provide contrast in the aisle, that’s really what’s going to help you in terms of standing out first and foremost and being seen.
And you brought up the book quickly. I was very fortunate to co-author, along with Alex Hunt, Unpacked: Predict Packaging that Sells, which launched this year in July. And in that book, we go through what some of the best practices are in terms of design and how to achieve contrast. The book is so much more than that, but one of the core tenets is: what makes great packaging design and contrast, and how do you drive contrast in the aisle?
There’s a variety of different tactics that can be used to drive contrast. We think about them through a framework that we’ve developed here called the 4S framework, which is also rooted in behavioral science principles. With that framework, one of the key pieces is Being Seen and, first and foremost, driving that contrast just to get noticed.
But beyond that, there’s so much more. It’s not just being noticed for the sake of being noticed. It’s being noticed in a way that’s salient, so that shoppers remember you, so that shoppers recognize you. And then going beyond that, really communicating in a way that drives purchase when it comes to putting the pack in the cart—whether again it’s literally that grocery cart or just clicking that button and checking out.
Melina Palmer: Absolutely. And so, I mean, great opportunity to share more about what are the four S’s? Right. So we got “Be Seen.” And while you did say salient, that’s not one of the actual S’s. Exactly right. So we have one.
Matt Salem: So the 4S framework in and of itself is Be Seen, Shoppable, Seductive, and Selected.
That framework starts with what we have just talked about: Being Seen. But beyond that, we also need to make sure that we can be differentiated within the choice architecture that is the shelf set that shoppers are shopping from. So we have to facilitate that experience by differentiating from competition. First and foremost: this is our brand, this is what our brand stands for. And then within the brand: these are the variants that we offer and these are the differences between the different options you have available in the shelf context.
From there, and from being Shoppable, it’s then about seducing and being Seductive, which is that third S. The way I like to look at it is through two different lenses. One is very quickly reassuring shoppers that “costs of entry” are being addressed. An example I always like to give—and many have probably heard it from me over the course of conversation in my career—if you’re in the frozen pizza aisle, you must have some sort of delicious-looking hot cheesy pull coming out on your box. And the reason why is because you want to give the shopper that emotional feel of “it’s going to taste great.” I could picture pulling the cheese, I could picture it being a hot pizza, despite the fact that I’m shopping in a cold frozen door aisle, right?
So that’s part of it, like addressing those costs of entry. But then there’s also the point of difference idea, which is: “Okay, yes, you’re going to be a great tasty pizza, but why are you different than the next box that’s showing me a great tasty pizza?” And that could be a variety of reasons. It could be that you’re organic, it could be that your toppings are as close as you could get from farm to table, it could be that you have a cauliflower crust. Whatever that point of difference may be, you want to communicate that so the shopper thinks, “Okay, I get it. You address what I need and you have something different that makes me want to try you.”
And then once you seduce the shopper, that last S is being Selected. And frankly, that’s more of a culmination of the first three S’s that we talked about. You’re taking it off the shelf, you’re putting it in your cart. And those first three S’s, depending upon the category you’re in and the size of your brand, how much you have to impact each S can vary.
Interestingly, if you’re a very big brand, for example, being seen is important, but it’s likely if you have, let’s just say, a 50% share of shelf—think like a Tide detergent or Coca-Cola and Pepsi—you’re going to be seen. So to increase visibility might not be as important to you as the newcomer who has two little facings. How do they get seen? How do they break through? So that’s just an idea of how brand size can impact how much you need to kind of pull those levers in terms of being Seen, Shoppable, and Seductive in order to get Selected.
Large Brands vs. Newcomers: Visual Equity and Autopilot
Melina Palmer: Definitely. Well, let’s just walk through these as kind of like case studies. So if the big one comes, what are you maybe going to focus on? What are some questions you might ask? What should someone be thinking about if that’s them that’s listening? And then also for the newbie, what do we look at for these four S’s?
Matt Salem: Yeah, sure. So for the bigger brands, typically it’s going to be more so a focus on protecting the visual equities that resonate quickly with consumers. That doesn’t mean you can’t change. It just means you have to establish guardrails to change.
When these bigger brands want to redesign, we want to make sure that they’re not going to do so in a way that causes confusion at the shelf, or let’s even say hesitation. That “question mark” when shoppers go to the category, they notice something’s different, they don’t quite notice what it is, and it causes pause and it almost makes them reevaluate—which is now giving them a chance to leave and go elsewhere.
Shoppers are very habitual. They’re coming into the aisle and wanting to get out quickly. They’re on autopilot for a lot of purchases. So for those larger brands, it’s almost keeping them on autopilot. But let’s say you’re adding new SKUs to your brand. Well, you want to make sure that the equities that you’re leveraging from a visual standpoint to communicate “Hey, it’s me over here” are still there, but you’re also doing so in a way that’s informing the shopper that there’s something else to this now. There’s something new going on. Let me investigate and find it out.
On the other end of the spectrum, when we talk about the new brands that are trying to break through in the aisle, that visibility is just absolutely critical. Because if you’re not seen, you’re not sold. It’s a mantra we’ve had here for years. You need to be seen first and foremost. And when you’re seen, you need to then communicate very quickly, particularly that point of difference, because you want to establish what makes you unique and why you should be tried.
It’s really going to be about getting seen and communicating very quickly. And that doesn’t necessarily mean with words. It could be with visuals. Visuals we know speak much more quickly. The old adage, “a picture’s worth a thousand words,” is true. So we want to make sure that you’re communicating very quickly in the aisle, getting your point of difference across and driving trials.
Melina Palmer: Definitely. And you have to just go walk a lot of aisles. Right? Do you spend a lot of time just walking through stores?
Matt Salem: So I would say on the shopping trips where I have my children with me, it’s a bit more “let’s go and let’s get out.” Because the reality is they can easily get distracted. There’s some advantages to getting distracted at times; maybe they point something out that I would not have noticed. But most of the time with them, it’s a quicker shopping experience because my rational side prevails.
But when I’m alone and I’m just shopping on my own, that’s when I actually tend to explore and investigate a little bit more and find myself maybe getting lost in the aisle, if you will, for a little while. Highly dependent on if the children are with me or not.
Melina Palmer: Yeah. But, you know, having the kids with you is more like what many of us are experiencing when we go shopping. Right? So what actually stands out through the distraction and kids wanting samples of things and every toy that they happen to see.
Matt Salem: Right, right. Like, stay away from aisle seven. In my store, that’s where the toys are. Like, try to shop that one on the times the children are not with me. I’m well aware of the toy struggle that can happen in the aisle for sure.
Melina Palmer: Yes. It’s funny when you were just talking about the packaging that kind of makes you stop and go, “What? Like, what is this?” That’s so strange.
Just yesterday my husband and I were in Costco and they have a package of hash browns, but they’re in like a milk carton that looks like it has some version of a pour spout like that you would open up at the top. And like, I understand conceptually why they would be square for packaging because you can stack. But why the milk carton pointy top? I can’t imagine I’m pouring out frozen or unfrozen hash browns out of a paper container. It’s the weirdest packaging.
Matt Salem: Well, it got your attention at least. I can almost picture pouring tater tots out of a milk carton.
Melina Palmer: No, it’s like shredded long pieces of potato in like the old-school paper milk carton that you open and it makes a weird sort of a spout versus like a pour thing. No, it makes no sense. But we’ll have to go back and investigate now.
Case Study: Gentleman Jack and the Power of AI
Melina Palmer: So you definitely have lots of clients and interesting work that you’ve done across Behaviorally. What case studies can you share? Something where it was a big win or a big “oops” of something that maybe happened before someone came to you?
Matt Salem: Sure, yeah. I do have a favorite case study from the book for a variety of reasons. One is—and I know we’ll talk a bit more about the landscape today in research and the impact of AI—a lot of the Unpacked book is really focused on leveraging AI in order to unlock the power of data intelligence.
At Behaviorally, we’ve developed something called the Pack Power Score, which leverages AI. The example I’m going to give happens to be one of the highest Pack Power scores that we’ve seen for packaging. The real reason why it’s my favorite is because I am an avid whiskey drinker and it’s about Gentleman Jack.
There’s a great case study in there for Gentleman Jack where originally when it came out, the packaging was differentiated, but not as differentiated as it ultimately became. One of the drawbacks of the original Gentleman Jack pack was that it did not live up to the promise of the liquid inside—meaning an elevated experience, a premium liquid inside.
So the packaging was revamped and it was revamped in a way where they completely changed the structure. They added certain assets to the pack like the use of metallics and the use of an embossed signature to really dial up that premium notion. And with that, they increased sales by a staggering 40%. And it’s attributed to that packaging change.
Now what’s very interesting about that, and for any non-believers out there, the liquid inside did not change. When Gentleman Jack had its packaging redesign, it was the same exact liquid inside. And I think alcohol and spirits in particular are great examples of that. I am rather certain that if I took Tequila Brand A (a mainstream, lower price point) and put it into the packaging of Tequila Brand B (a more premium brand), people’s perceptions of that liquid may change just because I poured one liquid into the packaging of another.
People would rate that same liquid differently depending upon the packaging. So it really does work together and in harmony. It really can help to elevate not only people’s perceptions of the product inside without tasting it, but perhaps even after when they do taste it.
Melina Palmer: And like you said, the metallic and the signature help to make it so that I instantly see this and think, “Oh, that’s premium.”
I always really loved our mutual friend Roger Dooley, like when I got his book Friction. The cover of the book is very rough in the feeling of it. Whereas most books are smooth and kind of shiny. When you have a book called Friction, having a rough texture on the cover of the book is important in being able to imply that.
Touch has so much to do with the way that we remember things. There’s no reason why blankets need to be packaged where there’s a hole so you can feel a soft, fuzzy blanket, or that kids can reach in and actually press the play button on a toy other than—there’s not a functional reason why—but for the sake of getting people to buy the thing and experience it with our hands.
Matt Salem: For sure. The sensory experience. As much as you could tap into the senses and then thus tap into the emotions to a degree, it’s only going to help. Absolutely agree.
Predictive Modeling and Real Shopper Data
Melina Palmer: Well, you did mention a little bit about what you all have been doing with AI. Can you elaborate more? It’s not just AI for the sake of AI. What makes your experience different?
Matt Salem: Absolutely. When we talk about behavioral science principles and the 4S model, that really is the first pillar of four pillars that we speak about in the book in terms of developing an engine for predicting packaging.
That behavioral science piece is really critical because ultimately we’ve learned over the years that observing behavior and looking at what shoppers do is going to be very important as compared to what they say. It’s not that we don’t listen to what they say, but observation is really the most powerful piece. The metrics that we see as most indicative of what happens in the real world are those tied to observation: visibility (do they see it?), findability (can they find it?), and then ultimately, do they buy it?
From there, what we’ve done is we’ve productized those behavioral science principles. That means we’re executing our research in a very systematic, consistent way so that we collect every single metric that we know leads to transactions through five plus decades of business and building a database.
You then take AI and unlock the power of that database. The way that we’re using AI is to create predictive models. We’re using AI to identify patterns but also—and as if not more important—Computer Vision. AI Computer Vision is breaking designs down into data. It understands the shapes, the colors, the brand marks, the visuals, the proximity of these elements, and the relative size of them versus the pack real estate itself.
In doing so, you have two different data sets: the behavioral data and the design assets data. AI looks at those concurrently and starts to identify patterns that exist between the visual assets and the behaviors recorded. Once you have a model trained, you can upload designs. Computer vision will look at the design and say, “What do I expect or predict for this packaging based upon all I’ve been trained on?” It’s super cool, cutting-edge.
Melina Palmer: And so essentially, like with the Gentleman Jack, right? If that had come out and you put it through and go, “Hey, this is not standing out, our score is very low,” you can try to mock up something before you actually go produce and bottle and put it on a bunch of shelves. We can put it in this virtual space where the AI is able to analyze it. In this version, we’ll make the logo bigger; in this case, we’ll add in some metallics or put a signature. You get that optimized product and then you do more in-person type of test and rollout.
Matt Salem: Sure. Yeah. Then we would test more. Still in a digital way with online testing, but with consumers, real people. That’s typically the final step. The game changer here is the ability to test, learn, and then have this continual cycle of “create and iterate” earlier on in the process.
The reason we have this is because clients were telling us, “It’d be great if earlier on I know if I cut the wrong designs out of the mix. Before I come to you guys at Behaviorally, I have 20 or 30 designs sometimes. There’s a lot of smart people in the room making these decisions, but frankly, we’re just making them on our own. We don’t have any data to help back these decisions.”
That’s how this tool—Pack AI—came to be. It lives on a self-serve platform called My Behaviorally, where clients can literally log in and drag-drop a design and get the predictions.
Melina Palmer: And that’s where, potentially in that process, we’ve all been in those rooms where someone says, “Well, I don’t like that shade of purple. Personally, I dislike purple, and so no one else could possibly like it.” But it’s like, well, we picked purple because there’s not a lot of purple in the soda aisle! You pick it intentionally, but someone’s personal bias gets it thrown out.
Matt Salem: That’s right. And sadly, I would say sometimes that even happens after a ton of great work is done and you’re closer to the end point. The human element comes into play for better or worse. Those personal biases or confirmation bias can lead to eliminating something that, with the masses, could have worked.
Melina Palmer: Yeah, definitely. Well, and we know too, so often you’re not the ideal buyer of whatever it is that you’re producing. Especially when you’re up in C-suite land and if you’re not even in the aisle doing your own shopping or the product isn’t meant for you. Like a drink targeted at 18-year-old gamers—you’re just not going to know.
Matt Salem: Right. You better talk to the people in the aisle for sure.
Melina Palmer: And not just having to ask one or two random people, but having so much more data than we could possibly really imagine based on decades of actual research.
Matt Salem: And you just hit on a critical component because, perhaps more important than the tech and the AI, is what it’s built on. We have the world’s largest packaging database and it’s built on real shopper data. This isn’t secondary data where we’re not quite sure how it was collected. We’re personally collecting all of this data.
It’s not generative AI creating data sets that didn’t exist out in the wild. This is something within our control. The data set you’re leveraging is an absolutely critical component. When clients ask what they should be thinking about when using AI, my typical answer is: Think about what it’s built on.
If you think about the 4S framework, the KPIs that feed in are ones we know lead to transactions. We validated that by linking it to actual sales data. We focus on a metric called NMAE, which helps us understand the rate of error. We target a 90% accuracy rate.
Melina Palmer: Definitely. Well, and then I think just for people as they consider—it’s not like you just load your potential packaging into ChatGPT and say, “Is this good?” One, we have to think about the questions we ask. “Good” in terms of what? Are people going to see it in the context of the shelf? It might feel a little bit weird to put up a picture of a box and ask ChatGPT if it is “seductive” enough. It might get confused.
Matt Salem: Exactly right. You prompt with minimal information and you could get responses that vary widely. What is “good”? Good for you nutritionally? It’s a pretty broad question. It has to be better prompted and, frankly, better informed too.
Closing Thoughts: Packaging as the Brand’s Wardrobe
Melina Palmer: Well, thanks so much for coming onto the show to chat about packaging. I know there are people listening who work in packaging who are very excited to have heard this conversation, and those who don’t hopefully are a little bit enlightened. For everyone who’s now so excited to get their copy of Unpacked and to learn more, where should they go?
Matt Salem: Yeah, sure. Well, certainly you could go right on Amazon for the book itself. Just put in the search bar Unpacked: Predict Packaging that Sells. You can get a digital copy, an audiobook, or a physical book.
You can also go to the Behaviorally website, www.behaviorally.com. There’s a wide amount of information there, including white papers, articles, and webinars. We hope the book gives you an understanding of why packaging is critical and how the principles we have in place can help businesses succeed using a proprietary large database.
Melina Palmer: Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for coming on and sharing about this. We’ll put links in the show notes to make it easy for everyone to find you and get the book. Matt, thanks again and looking forward to the next time we get to chat.
Matt Salem: Thanks so much for having me on, Melina. Really appreciate it.
Melina Palmer: Thank you again to Matt Salem for joining me on the show today. What got your brain buzzing in today’s conversation?
For me, one of the top things for everyone to remember is that whether we’re talking about packaging, pricing, or broader customer experience decisions, the value of any model depends on how closely it reflects real human behavior. Observation, context, and behavior at the moment of choice consistently tell us more than stated preferences or opinions.
Packaging is rarely neutral, no matter what people say or want to think. It shapes expectations, attention, and perceived value. We often refer to packaging as the “wardrobe choice” of the brand. If I come to you wearing what I’m wearing today versus a backwards hat and gym clothes, you might have a different perception when you first see me.
Are you making it cognitively easier for people to choose you, or inadvertently making it more difficult by misaligning the story of what your brand is about? If you want help in deciding how your brand fits into all that, I’d love to talk. Please send an email to melina@thebrainybusiness.com or check out our website to book a time. And of course, if you’re looking to run a specific test like the ones Matt was talking about, I highly recommend Behaviorally. They do fantastic work.
Join me next time for another brainy episode of the Brainy Business podcast. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me—and remember to be thoughtful.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops, and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.
