The Brainy Business Podcast Digs into the Psychology of Why People Buy
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 512 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Dr. Gleb Tsipursky to discuss avoiding disasters when returning to the office.
Melina Palmer: Ready? Let’s get started.
Announcer: You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast, where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here’s your host, Melina Palmer.
This Refreshed Episode Focuses on How Leaders Can Foster Meaning in the Workplace
Melina Palmer: Hello. Hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer, and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. Today’s refreshed episode originally aired back in October of 2021, and honestly, it’s kind of wild that this conversation on Return to the Office Strategies is still so relevant nearly four years later. But that just goes to show, real, lasting change takes time, especially when it comes to big foundational shifts like how and where we work. In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Gleb Tsipursky, CEO of Disaster Avoidance Experts and author of a practical mini book on returning to the Office and leading hybrid teams, as well as several other books. He’s been a repeat guest on the podcast and is awesome. He brings so much, so much value when it comes to navigating the real challenges and opportunities that organizations face when rethinking the office.
Melina Palmer: In this conversation, Gleb and I talk about the psychological traps that leaders can fall into when making decisions about workplace strategies, including status quo bias and the illusion of control, how important it is for organizations to survey their teams to ensure retention and recruitment of top talent, and why so many companies still aren’t doing it. We also dig into the significant benefits of remote work, including increased productivity and employee well-being, while also addressing the challenges of fostering innovation and collaboration in a hybrid setting. Plus, Gleb shares actionable tips for leaders to overcome cognitive biases that can hinder effective decision-making, as well as practical strategies for creating inclusive work environments and promoting meaningful work. If you’re involved in shaping workplace policies, whether you’re a leader, an employee, or simply curious about the evolving landscape of work, this episode is a must listen.
Melina Palmer: Now, a little bit about Dr. Gleb Tsipursky before we jump into the conversation. Dr. Gleb Tsipursky is an internationally recognized expert on effective decision-making and risk management in business and government. He’s a behavioral scientist, CEO of Disaster Avoidance Experts, a hybrid work consultancy, and a best-selling author. His expertise is frequently featured in prominent publications, including Harvard Business Review, Fortune, and USA Today. His latest books include Returning to the Office and Leading Hybrid Teams and The Blind Spots Between Us: How to Overcome Unconscious Cognitive Biases and Build Better Relationships.
Melina Palmer: Last thing before we jump into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Gleb and myself, and more. It’s all waiting for you in the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/512. Now, let’s jump right in.
Welcome Dr. Gleb Tsipursky to The Brainy Business Podcast
Melina Palmer: Dr. Gleb Tsipursky, welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast.
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Glad to be here, Melina.
Melina Palmer: Oh, I’m so excited to be chatting with you today about rethinking the office. I think this is a topic that continues to be very relevant years and years after it really became a very hot topic. So I would love to just jump in and ask you, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see leaders making as they’re thinking about returning to the office?
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Oh, the biggest mistakes that leaders make is using their gut to make decisions on returning to the office, rather than focusing on best practices and research-based approaches. This tends to lead to disastrous outcomes for the bottom line of the company, for employee retention, for recruitment, because many companies are trying to force their employees to go back to the office more than the employees want. And that’s coming from their intuition. They’re making these gut-based decisions that are based on cognitive biases, dangerous judgment errors that we make because of how our brains are wired.
Melina Palmer: And that’s so interesting to hear you say that because it reminds me of so much of what I talk about on the show in relation to, you know, what happens when we’re trying to figure out what our customers want, because we’re using our gut, or we’re using our own internal biases to try and figure that out and we’re not actually talking to them. And it sounds like this is the exact same thing within organizations. They’re not talking to the team members. Is that what you’re seeing?
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Absolutely. That’s a huge part of it. The research shows that over 80% of companies are not surveying their employees for their preferences for going into the office, and that’s terrible. Only 18% of companies have actually surveyed their employees. And that means over 80% are simply trying to guess or making assumptions, which is where their intuitions and cognitive biases come in to fill in that gap in information, because they’re not getting information from employees directly through a systematic survey. And that’s especially egregious in that employees are voting with their feet. 40 to 60% of employees, according to survey after survey, threaten to resign if they’re forced to come to the office more than they want to. So you really, really need to talk to your employees. You really need to survey your employees, understand their preferences.
Melina Palmer: And the preferences really do matter too, because I’ve found that, you know, a lot of the companies, when they’re thinking about return to the office, they’re not always even doing it based on what’s best for the business or productivity, but sometimes it feels like it’s based on control. Right. They just, they want to be able to see the people in their seats and so they’re forcing them to do that. And so when you’re talking about the biases, what are some of the particular ones that you see coming up for leaders that are trying to make these decisions?
The Illusion of Control and Other Cognitive Biases
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: The biggest one is the illusion of control. So leaders in the past always managed by walking around. They saw their employees. And so they felt that they had control. Of course, that was an illusion of control too, because they never had that much control over their employees. But they felt it. Now, when employees are working remotely, hybrid or fully remotely, leaders feel a lack of control and that triggers that cognitive bias, the illusion of control, which makes them feel like they need to force their employees to return to the office to regain that illusion of control. Another big one is the status quo bias. The status quo bias refers to our desire to stick to what feels comfortable for us. And what felt comfortable to leaders was the pre-pandemic normal. That’s where they came to power. That’s where they’re most successful. That’s where they’re most comfortable. And they want to return to that, which is again, very damaging for the bottom line, retention, recruitment and so on. Another very powerful one is called the confirmation bias. This refers to the fact that we tend to look for information that confirms our beliefs and ignore information that disconfirms them. So leaders who want to return to the office will read reports about how Zoom is bad for people and so on and ignore the actual evidence that shows that remote work is more productive for the vast majority of employees. And it’s also cheaper for the company. So that’s the confirmation bias.
Melina Palmer: So true. And it makes me think about, you know, some of the companies who are having problems with what they’re doing right now because they’re saying, well, we’re doing a hybrid model. So we’re going to come in on Tuesdays and Thursdays and all of these things. And I know I’ve had clients that I’ve spoken with who are on those teams and saying, like, well, I live really far away and it’s a huge commute. And it’s just this thing of like, well, why don’t you have them come in when it’s best for them? Like, why are you dictating a particular thing for everyone to do, especially when it doesn’t always make sense?
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Yeah, this is, this is a very common issue with leaders who, because of that illusion of control, they feel they need to micromanage employees and tell them what to do. So the data shows that employees prefer to come in on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays. They strongly prefer to be in the office on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays because that’s when most other people are in. So if they’re coming into the office, they want to connect with other people. They want to collaborate in person. And so if you force everyone to come in on Tuesdays and Thursdays, then you lose the opportunity for people to come in on Wednesday. Maybe they have a doctor’s appointment on Tuesday or something happened with their kid on Thursday and they can’t come in. But maybe they’re free on Wednesday or they’re free on Monday and Friday and they would still want to connect with people. But you’re missing out on that opportunity. Plus, people are going into the office from Tuesday to Thursday. And then Friday and Monday are basically dead because nobody’s coming into the office. And that’s actually decreasing productivity and collaboration because people are not as available for collaboration on Mondays and Fridays.
Melina Palmer: So it makes sense from that standpoint, but it also creates more commute headaches for people and it’s a big time suck. So what do you recommend then for companies when they’re thinking about what the future of work looks like?
The Future of Work: A Human-Centered Approach
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Yeah. So first, if you’re going to have an office, make it a true collaboration hub. Don’t make people come in for individual work. And that’s what many companies are doing. They’re like, well, you know, some of these companies like, say, Apple, they force people to come in three days a week and they find that people spend time on Zoom calls in the office. They spend time doing individual work that they can do at home. That’s because they’re not managing their office as a true collaboration hub. So that means you’re going to have to decide. For example, if you’re meeting in the office to collaborate, what is it that you’re going to do that day that needs to be done in person for collaboration? How are you going to use your office space so that it’s designed to facilitate collaboration? You’re going to need to get rid of cubicles. You’re going to need to get rid of private offices because people are not going to be doing individual work there. So that’s one very important thing.
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Another important thing is to lead with a truly hybrid model. That is, you have some days in the office, some days remote, but you don’t mandate which days. You allow teams to decide for themselves which days they come in because teams are where the collaboration happens. That’s the unit of collaboration and connection and community. So let teams decide what works best for them, whether it’s two days a week, three days a week. We found that teams that come in two to three days a week actually do best in terms of the hybrid model. They’re more productive, they’re more satisfied. They have better retention. And it’s also important to have flexibility within that. So if some team members want to come in more often, some team members want to come in less often, you want to allow them to do so without sacrificing that collaboration and community that you need to be doing in the office.
Melina Palmer: And it’s interesting because I’ve found from a lot of my clients where they’ve moved into more of that hybrid space, even if it was just because of the pandemic. They’re actually having a better time with innovation and collaboration because they’re being more thoughtful about it. Right? They can’t just be like, oh, we’re all here. We’ll just, you know, have some serendipitous run-ins. Instead, they have to be very deliberate about it. And so they’re getting more out of it, which is so fascinating because that was one of the big arguments when this all first came out of, like, oh, we’re not going to be innovative or we’re not going to be able to do these things. But it sounds like, at least for some, it’s actually helped them.
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: That’s absolutely correct. So organizations that actually adapted to hybrid work well, that adopted best practices like we talk about, are finding that they are much more innovative, much more collaborative, because they’re much more intentional about it. That’s what it comes down to, being intentional. So instead of hoping for serendipity, you plan for it. You create structures that enable you to have conversations that are generative. You have brainstorming sessions that are virtual that work really well. You have intentional connections. You know, you plan for the water cooler. You don’t hope that it just happens. And that’s really important for innovation and for collaboration.
Melina Palmer: And when you’re looking at, you know, the overall sort of impact of these things, I know we’ve talked about retention and recruitment, which are huge elements. What are some of the other impacts that you’re seeing for companies that are adopting these more intentional policies?
The Benefits of Intentional Hybrid Policies
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: When companies adopt intentional hybrid policies, they’re much more productive. So remote work, hybrid work, when done well, is more productive than in-office work because people don’t have commutes, they don’t have as many interruptions, and they have more autonomy and flexibility, which are really important for creativity, for productivity. So that’s a big impact. Another big impact is employee well-being. So stress, anxiety, burnout are much lower for employees who are working in a hybrid manner that works for them, which is based on their preferences. And of course, employee retention and recruitment. So those are the biggest ones.
Melina Palmer: Awesome. And that’s so great to hear. I know you’ve mentioned in passing, you know, kind of the individual side of it, but are there things that individuals can do to advocate for the type of work environment that’s going to work best for them?
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Yeah, absolutely. So if you’re an individual and you want to work remotely or hybrid, you want to first show your current productivity, show that you’re productive working remotely, and bring that data to your boss. You want to make sure that your boss sees that you’re doing well. You want to show that you’re collaborative. You want to show that you’re communicative. So those are very important things to do. And then if your boss is still reluctant to allow you to work remotely or hybrid, then you want to appeal to them by using their own interests. So show how their interests are aligned with yours. So for example, if your boss wants to retain you and to recruit people, you can say, look, 40 to 60% of people threaten to resign if they’re forced to come to the office more than they want to. This is really an employee-driven market. This is the new normal. If we want to retain talent, if we want to recruit talent, we need to allow people to work in a flexible hybrid manner. So that’s going to be something that will appeal to their bottom line interests. And you want to frame it in a way that appeals to them, rather than framing it as what you want.
Melina Palmer: Such a great tip. And also something that I’m sure is applicable outside of the workplace and just in life in general, right? Like you have to speak someone else’s language to get through to them. That’s really, really important. So as people are, you know, whether it’s a leader or just an individual trying to implement some of these ideas, what are some of the biggest missteps that you see them making?
Mistakes to Avoid When Implementing Hybrid Work
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Yeah. So on the leaders’ side, we already talked about the main missteps, the main mistakes, which is relying on their gut, not surveying their employees, not making their office a collaboration hub, forcing people to come in on specific days, and not training their middle managers for managing hybrid teams. That’s a huge issue. So middle managers are used to managing by walking around, to seeing people in the office. And now they’re trying to figure out how to manage hybrid teams. And their leaders, senior leaders are often not training them in how to manage these teams. So that’s a big problem. And as an individual, the main mistakes that people make is not showing their productivity and not showing that they are collaborative, that they are communicating effectively. So not thinking about how to effectively advocate for themselves in a way that appeals to their leaders’ perceived self-interest.
Melina Palmer: And that last piece, too, the training for the middle managers, I think is so incredibly important because they’re being told, you know, go do this thing, figure out how to do it in your team, and then they’re just being expected to kind of make it up on their own without any additional training, which then makes them resentful. Right. And they’re going to push down. And it’s going to become a really messy situation. So I think that’s a brilliant point there.
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Absolutely. And that’s why they feel like they don’t have control, and they feel like they need to micromanage because they’re not trained in how to effectively manage hybrid teams. So they’re just relying on their gut, which is again, dangerous.
Melina Palmer: It really is. And I know you, of course, have a lot of resources for anyone who’s like, okay, tell me, where do I go to learn more about how to do all of these things and where can I find your other books? What are some of the best next steps for people to take who want to learn more from you?
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Absolutely. So the best place to go to is disasteravoidanceexperts.com. That’s my company’s main website, disasteravoidanceexperts.com. There, you can see all of our books, my books, you can sign up for a free weekly newsletter, you can see our blog, our articles, our videos, and so on. So that’s the best place to learn about my work. And then, of course, the books are widely available online and at bookstores.
Melina Palmer: Wonderful. And that’ll all be in the show notes at thebrainybusiness.com/512 for everyone to just be able to easily click that link and go grab it for themselves. So again, thank you so, so, so much for joining me on the show. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. And I think this is a super important topic. And I’m glad you’re out there teaching people how to do it right.
Dr. Gleb Tsipursky: Thanks for having me, Melina.
Melina Palmer: So what got your brain buzzing as you learned from Dr. Gleb Tsipursky today? For me, it’s the reminder of how easily we as humans fall prey to cognitive biases without even realizing it. The illusion of control, status quo bias, confirmation bias—these aren’t just academic terms. They’re real forces shaping how leaders make decisions about where and how we work, often to the detriment of their organizations and teams. The importance of surveying employees to understand their preferences for work environments also really stood out. It seems like such an obvious step, but the data shows it’s often overlooked. Understanding what drives and motivates each team member is crucial for retention, recruitment, and overall well-being. And finally, the insight that intentionality in hybrid work can lead to more innovation and collaboration, not less. When companies move beyond hoping for serendipitous encounters and instead plan for meaningful interactions, they unlock powerful new ways of working. This reframes the entire conversation from a challenge to an opportunity for growth and strategic advantage.
Join Me Thursday for a Brand New Episode About Meaningful Work
Melina Palmer: With that in mind, I would love to hear what resonated most for you, what stood out for you when listening to the episode. Is there anything you’re going to apply right away? Did you have a revelation about yourself or someone you’ve worked with? We would love to hear about it, so please come share with us on social media. You’ll find me as the Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy, as well as links to top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch, and more. It’s all waiting for you in the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/512. And just like that, episode 512 with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky is done. Join me next time for a brand new episode with Wes Adams and Tamara Myles to talk about meaningful work, how to create it, support it, and find it, even in challenging times. It’s going to be a lot of fun. You don’t want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me, and remember to be thoughtful.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business Podcast. Melina offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops and other services to help businesses be more brain friendly. For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.
