The Brainy Business Podcast Digs into the Psychology of Why People Buy
Melina Palmer: Welcome to episode 513 of the Brainy Business Understanding the Psychology of why People Buy. In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Wes Adams and Tamara Myles, co-authors of Meaningful Work.
Melina Palmer: Ready?
Melina Palmer: Let’s get started.
Announcer: You are listening to the Brainy Business Podcast where we dig into the psychology of why people buy and help you incorporate behavioral economics into your business, making it more brain friendly. Now, here’s your host, Melina Palmer.
Brainy Business Podcast Focuses on the Value of Meaningful Work
Melina Palmer: Hello. Hello everyone. My name is Melina Palmer and I want to welcome you to the Brainy Business Podcast. While our workplaces are changing more rapidly than ever before, one thing remains constant. The value of meaningful work. But what makes work meaningful? Should this rest solely on the employees to find their own meaning? Or is it important for the leaders and organization as a whole to make that connection to meaningful work possible?
Melina Palmer: According to my guests today, one study estimates an annual gain of nearly $10,000 for each employee who finds their work meaningful. And as you will hear in the conversation, many of the ways to increase these feelings of meaning aren’t expensive. So it’s a win, win, win for companies, leaders, and employees alike. In this episode, Wes Adams and Tamara Myles are here to share insights from their book, Meaningful Work: A Quest to Do Great Work, Find Purpose, and Make a Difference. They discuss how leaders can create an environment where meaningful work thrives, the three critical sources of meaning at work—community, contribution, and challenge—and practical strategies to foster a sense of belonging, recognize contributions, and offer growth opportunities. They’ll share compelling stories and actionable insights that can help transform workplace dynamics and enhance employee engagement. You’re going to learn how even small gestures, like expressing gratitude, can have a ripple effect on team morale and and performance. Plus, stick around for a story about how their publisher wanted to change the cover of the book and what happened next. Now, a little bit about Wes and Tamara before we jump right into the conversation.
Melina Palmer: Wes Adams is a principal at SY Partners, an organizational transformation consultancy, where he helps CEOs and their teams lead significant change. He is also a faculty member at the Columbia Business School where he teaches on purpose-driven leadership. And Tamara Myles is the founder of Tamara Myles Consulting and the author of The Secret to Peak Productivity. She helps organizations and individuals increase their productivity and effectiveness by leveraging insights from organizational psychology and behavioral science. Both Wes and Tamara are experts in helping people and organizations find meaning in their work and perform at their best.
Melina Palmer: Last thing before we jump into the conversation, I want to be sure you know there are links in the show notes for my top related past episodes and books, ways to get in touch with Wes, Tamara and myself, and more. It’s all within the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/513. Now, let’s jump right in.
Welcome Wes Adams and Tamara Myles to The Brainy Business Podcast
Melina Palmer: Wes Adams and Tamara Myles, welcome to the Brainy Business podcast.
Wes Adams: Thanks Melina. Great to be here.
Tamara Myles: Thanks Melina. So happy to be here.
Melina Palmer: Oh, yes. I am so excited to be chatting with both of you about your new book, Meaningful Work. This is a topic that I know is something that everyone’s thinking about, probably more now than ever before. So let’s just jump right in and for anyone who’s saying, like, what are we even talking about, when we say meaningful work, can you share a little bit about what you mean when you say that and how you define that within the book?
Wes Adams: Yeah, absolutely. So we define meaningful work as work that brings together passion and purpose with contribution and impact. And our research suggests that there are three critical sources of meaning at work, what we call the three C’s. So that’s community, contribution and challenge. And these are the three sources that we found are most important and most impactful in creating meaningful work for people.
Melina Palmer: And it’s so interesting to think about each of those because, you know, my work is about applying behavioral science and especially when we’re thinking about things within teams, so often these things come up, but they’re not framed in this context. And I think that’s why it was so great to have you two on to kind of put a bow around that concept because it’s something that again, managers are talking about. They’re thinking about, but it’s not being done in a way that’s like, oh, this is the meaning of work. So you have a lot of great stories, of course, in the book, and you talk about, you know, each of these three C’s. Can you share a little bit about one or two of those and maybe a story that goes along with it that you think will help illustrate what you mean by that concept?
Three Cs of Meaningful Work: Community, Contribution, and Challenge
Tamara Myles: Sure. So the three C’s, we have community, which is that sense of belonging. The relationships that you build at work. And often that’s the number one reason why people stay in a job is because they like the people that they work with, because we are social creatures. So it’s no surprise that that sense of community, that sense of belonging that we get from our work environment is a critical piece of meaningful work. The second C is contribution, which is knowing that what you’re doing is actually making an impact that you are contributing to something larger than yourself. And the third C is challenge, which is that sense of growth, the ability to learn and to grow over time, which really does connect with our internal desire for mastery, for self-efficacy, that ability to feel like we’re good at something, that we’re making progress. And that often will, will really help to, to motivate us and keep us engaged.
Wes Adams: And, Melina, what’s so interesting about those three C’s is they’re not equally important for everyone. So for each individual, they are prioritized a little bit differently. So for example, for some people, community is really the primary driver of meaning for them at work. For others, it’s contribution, and for still others, it’s challenge. And so part of the secret sauce that we encourage leaders to unlock is understanding for each individual on their team what is the primary source of meaning for them. So is it contribution, is it challenge, or is it community? And how do you tailor your approach as a leader to really lean into that primary source of meaning for each individual.
Melina Palmer: And that’s exactly what I was going to ask about is how you can know which of those matters to someone. Do you recommend, you know, doing surveys to ask people or does it come from sort of observing how they’re reacting in team settings or how would you recommend managers figure out what matters most to their team members?
Wes Adams: It’s a combination of those things. So we do provide a self-assessment in the book that anyone can use and it’s a great exercise for teams to go through where everyone takes the self-assessment individually and then shares it. And it’s amazing what you learn about other people on your team when you’re talking about something as personal as what drives meaning for you in your work. So we definitely advocate for that. We also encourage leaders to simply talk to people on their team about these things. What do they find most meaningful at work? When do they feel most alive at work? What’s going on when they’re feeling that? What’s going on when they’re not feeling that? These are all very revealing questions that can give a leader a sense of what’s really motivating people on their team.
Tamara Myles: Yeah. And, Melina, it’s interesting because the reason why we ended up with these three C’s for meaningful work is because as we looked at all of the research, these were the categories that kept emerging time and time again. So it’s not like we just pulled these out of thin air. These are really based on, years and years of research that have been done by psychologists and organizational behavior, you know, experts. So these really, when you think about it, it kind of makes sense, right? When you think about what are the things that fulfill us. It’s that sense of connection, that sense of accomplishment, that sense of growth. And so those are the three main buckets that we talk about, but you can see how they, they kind of, you know, flow in and out of other things. For example, gratitude, which is something that we talk about in the book. Gratitude is a huge driver of meaning in the workplace, and it’s really easy to apply, right? So if we think about it from a perspective of, I’m a leader and I want to increase the meaning in my work environment. How do I do that? And sometimes it’s just about saying thank you. And sometimes that thank you needs to be really public, and sometimes that thank you needs to be very personal and private. But that sense of gratitude can really help to drive meeting in both the contribution, the sense of contribution, as well as community. Because when you say thank you to someone, you’re not just saying thank you for the work they did. You’re also strengthening that bond, that relationship between you two.
The Power of Gratitude in the Workplace
Melina Palmer: And it’s so important the way you said that about how it can be personal or private. I know I have some clients where they’re saying, you know, my team member just does not want to be called out. Like, they don’t want to get the award. They don’t want to have their name be out there, but they would love for me to pull them aside for a minute and say, hey, I just really want you to know this thing you did was super helpful. It really helped me out. It helped the team. Thanks. Right. And that is huge and so, so powerful. You’re mentioning gratitude and it reminds me of an early episode that I had with Dr. Bob Cialdini talking about his principle of liking and how we’re more likely to do things for people we know and like. And how do you get someone to like you? You pay them a genuine compliment. Right. So it’s that same thing, but in this sort of broader context of the meaning behind what we’re doing. And I know some people will try to say, well, my team just wants money. That’s what motivates them. And money is certainly a motivator, but beyond a certain level, it isn’t going to get you anything more from them, right?
Tamara Myles: That’s right. And that’s, that’s what the research shows, right? That once people get to a certain salary level where they’re comfortable, where they’re able to meet their basic needs, that the money isn’t actually as much of a motivator as people sometimes think. And there’s some great research that we talk about in the book about how when people think that they’re working for the money, that it actually decreases their intrinsic motivation. So it’s almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? If you think it’s just about the money, then that’s really what ends up being what you’re focused on, and it decreases all the other elements of meaning, which are often more powerful than money.
Wes Adams: Yeah. And Melina, what’s so interesting is when we work with senior leaders, they will often tell us, you know, I think what my employees want from me is a thank you. Or I think what my employees want from me is to understand the purpose of our company. And what our research found is that for most employees, the answer is often yes, and. So they do want that thank you. And they do want that recognition. And they do want to feel connected to the larger purpose of the company. But they also want to feel connected to their team and they want to be challenged and they want to be given opportunities to grow. So it’s very rarely one thing that drives meaning for people. And what we as leaders, the responsibility that we have is to look across those three C’s and to find opportunities for people to tap into each of them.
Melina Palmer: And that’s so important, that end piece because even if it’s, you know, it’s easy to just kind of say, well, I’m just going to send out a bunch of thank you notes. And then after that they’re going to feel the meaning. But it’s really this combination. It’s the whole person approach that is going to be helpful and especially when you’re looking for that customization. So those three C’s again, community, contribution, and challenge. And I imagine that for a small team, it’s easier to think about this in the context of, you know, a five to ten person team. You can know those nuances pretty well. But as you get to larger organizations with hundreds or thousands of people, this would get, you know, exponentially more difficult to apply in a strategic way. So are there elements where you’re talking about this, that it can be applied from, you know, the top down, or how do you recommend implementing something like this in a large organization?
How to Implement Meaningful Work in a Large Organization
Tamara Myles: Yeah, that’s a great question, Melina. So often the focus is really at the team level because that’s where most of the meaningful work gets done. That’s where people are building those relationships. That’s where they’re seeing how their work is directly connected to what other people are doing. However, at the senior leadership level, there’s absolutely a role for them to play as well. And that’s more of a culture perspective, right? So how do you create a culture of meaningful work throughout the organization where people are encouraged to build community, where they’re encouraged to give recognition and gratitude, where they’re encouraged to seek out challenges and to seek out learning opportunities? So it’s really about building that culture from the top down. So senior leaders, it’s a hundred percent their responsibility to talk about meaningful work, to talk about the importance of those three C’s, to model that behavior as well, to make sure that they are living and breathing what they’re saying to other people, to really create a culture of, of meaningful work that helps to enable managers at every level and every employee at every level to find that meaning.
Melina Palmer: Awesome. And that makes perfect sense. I was thinking of it as maybe some sort of a survey or something that could be used at a greater scale, but this is much more organic, which I think is a better approach than something where it’s being, like, pushed down on someone. You know, you need to feel meaning. So what sort of changes did you see, in the book?
Impact of Meaningful Work on Employee and Organizational Success
Melina Palmer: So you mentioned the $10,000 extra per employee that finds work meaningful. What are some of the other impacts that you all saw and talked about in the book?
Wes Adams: Yeah, so there’s really significant research that demonstrates the impact of meaningful work on both employee and organizational success. So for employees, we found that meaningful work is correlated with greater engagement, greater well-being, greater satisfaction. People are more likely to stay in their roles. They’re more likely to recommend their organization to others. And for organizations, meaningful work is correlated with higher productivity, higher customer satisfaction, and lower rates of attrition. So there’s really a significant business case to be made for meaningful work, which we detail in the book as well.
Melina Palmer: And that’s what’s so great because sometimes people are like, oh, this sounds good, but like, is it going to affect my bottom line? Well, you’re answering that in the affirmative for sure, to say that this is something that does impact your bottom line. And that’s why it is so important and that it’s going to stick, because if you’re helping people, they’re not going to want to leave if they are feeling good about what they’re doing and they’re finding that purpose. Right. It’s a huge thing.
Tamara Myles: Yeah. And Melina, what’s interesting too is that some of the ways to increase meaning aren’t expensive, right? So it’s not like you have to roll out a huge program or a huge initiative that’s going to cost a lot of money, because often times it’s these micro moments, these little gestures of gratitude, those opportunities for connection, that are really inexpensive, but have a huge impact in driving meaning in the workplace.
Melina Palmer: And it has a bigger impact than those big gestures. I mean, it’s like a lot of what we know in behavioral science that if you do one really big thing, it’s just going to have that one big splash. And then people are going to forget about it, but it’s the little nudges all along the way. That add up that will have a much bigger impact than that one huge program that you implemented at a high cost, right?
Tamara Myles: That’s right. Because it’s consistent. Right. It’s consistent and it’s personal. And that’s really what we’re looking for, is those frequent, consistent, personal opportunities to feel connected, to feel like we’re growing, to feel like we’re contributing.
Melina Palmer: You know, as you were mentioning, too, some of those little things that can have a big impact, and the example of gratitude in the workplace, and you’re talking about sometimes it’s public, sometimes it’s private. Are there other areas that you found from your research that were these sort of small things that people can do that, again, have that big ripple effect that maybe people aren’t thinking about, or they’re just missing those opportunities?
Wes Adams: Yeah. So one of the things we talk about in the book is this concept of connecting to the larger purpose of the organization. So obviously every organization has a larger purpose for why it exists. And for many organizations, that’s not, you know, to save the world or to put a man on the moon, right? So it’s, it’s often, you know, a pretty mundane purpose, but there’s a powerful opportunity for leaders to connect people to that purpose in a more meaningful way. So a great example is there’s a, a story of a janitor at NASA who, when asked what his job was, said my job is to help put a man on the moon. Right. So that’s just a profound insight into how important it is to connect people to the larger purpose of the organization, even if they’re not directly involved in that larger purpose. So that’s one example of a small thing that leaders can do is to make sure that they’re connecting people to the larger purpose of the organization, even if that purpose is mundane.
Meaningful Work Book Cover Evolution
Melina Palmer: And the janitor story is a great one and one that you know, resonates and that has been out there in the world for a while. And it’s so powerful to kind of be able to bring that into the forefront of thinking about the greater meaning, rather than just the task that’s at hand. And you have so many, so many stories in the book that you’re able to kind of illustrate that point, whether they’re, you know, well known or something you’ve seen and from clients and whatnot. And you also have a really fun story, in the book about the cover.
Tamara Myles: Oh my gosh. We have to tell you the story about the book cover because it’s so funny. So when you’re writing a book, you spend all this time writing the book and editing the book and then you turn it over to the publisher and they start working on the marketing and the design elements of the book. And so we had given it to the designer. And they came back with a cover for Meaningful Work, and it was this beautiful picture of like a tree with all these leaves that were shaped like hands. So it was like a hand tree. And it was just so pretty. And we were like, oh, we just love this. It’s so beautiful. And then we, the next time we went to our editor, she said, oh, so about the cover, you know, the sales team, they’re really pushing back on this cover. They’re like, they don’t think it’s very masculine. And they, and they don’t think it’s going to appeal to male readers. So we need you to change it. And we were like, what? Like, what are you talking about? This is a beautiful cover. And they’re like, you know, it’s like a hand tree. It’s like a little too soft. We need to make it more masculine. So they ended up going back to the drawing board and they came back with this picture of like a brick wall and a hole in the brick wall. And we were like, oh my gosh. Like, this is like completely opposite. And what does it even mean, right? Like it’s meaningful work. It’s not like the meaningful wall. And we were like, what? Like, we just went from this beautiful hand tree to a brick wall. And we were like, you know, we had to go back to the sales team and say, hey, look, this just does not resonate with the book at all. It doesn’t connect at all to the content. So we ended up going with what we thought was a perfect balance, which is the cover that you have, which is that puzzle piece that’s a perfect fit. And it was just such a microcosm of the whole process of the book of you know, what do you think is going to work for the market. And what does the market actually respond to, and how do you get something that really resonates with the content of the book. And so we were very happy with the end result, but it was a bit of a journey to get there.
Melina Palmer: Oh, it’s so interesting too, because in that situation, you know, one of those interesting things where that first one, there’s nothing wrong with it. But it might have been more of, like, maybe it would have been more of a gendered book in a sense. I don’t know, it just, it’s interesting how, you know, you think, oh, this is just a beautiful thing. So, of course, everyone will love it. But it makes you wonder what else they had seen in some market research or some test they had done that made them so adamant about, like, not doing that. It’s interesting.
Melina Palmer: Right. Well, and I love the puzzle piece too, because it also kind of helps you think about that piece of it, right? Because as the employee, it’s my own piece to the puzzle, and where do I fit and how does that work? And then on the leader side, it’s how do I help everyone fit together and feel like their piece matters to the puzzle? And that is just such a great visual that I think really resonated with me as I was reading it and then seeing the cover and saying, like, that makes perfect sense for this book.
Tamara Myles: Thank you. We’re very happy with the outcome as well.
Melina Palmer: Yes. Well, and I know everyone now is like, I need to get this book and read it, and I need to learn more from you. So, Wes and Tamara, for everyone who’s just super excited and wants to learn more about the book, more about your work and the projects that you’re doing, what’s the best next step for them to take?
Wes Adams: Yeah, so you can find the book anywhere that books are sold. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, independent bookstores. And then you can learn more about Tamara and my work at our websites. So for me, it’s wesadams.com. And for Tamara, it’s https://www.google.com/search?q=tamaramiles.com. And we both have links to the book on our websites and other ways to connect with us on social media and other projects that we’re working on as well.
Melina Palmer: Awesome. And that’ll all be in the show notes at thebrainybusiness.com/513 for everyone to just kind of quickly click on that link there and be able to grab it and learn more. So again, thank you so, so, so much for joining me on the show. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. And I think this is a concept that is so meaningful and important to everyone and I love that you’re bringing this message out to the world.
Wes Adams: Thanks so much, Melina.
Tamara Myles: Thanks Melina. We’re so glad to be here.
Melina Palmer: So what got your brain buzzing as you learned from Wes and Tamara today? For me, it’s the reminder that everyone wants to feel like what they do matters. It’s a core human need. And when we can lean into that as leaders, it makes a huge difference in engagement, productivity, and retention. It’s really a win-win for everyone involved. I also loved hearing about the three C’s: community, contribution, and challenge, and how important it is for leaders to identify which of those matters most to each individual on their team and then to lean into that. It takes out the guesswork and allows managers to be much more strategic in how they’re supporting their teams. And finally, the reminder that it’s often the small, inexpensive gestures like gratitude that can have the biggest impact. No need for huge, costly programs when a simple thank you can make all the difference.
Join Me Tuesday for Another Brainy Episode of The Brainy Business Podcast
Melina Palmer: With that in mind, I would love to hear what resonated most for you, what stood out for you when listening to the episode. Is there anything you’re going to apply right away? Did you have a revelation about yourself or someone you’ve worked with? We would love to hear about it, so please come share with us on social media. You’ll find me as The Brainy Biz pretty much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. There are links in the show notes to make it easy as well as links to my top related past episodes and books, including Meaningful Work, ways to get in touch with Wes, Tamara and myself, and more. It’s all waiting for you in the app you’re listening to and at thebrainybusiness.com/513. And thank you again to Wes Adams and Tamara Myles for joining me on the show today. It was a delight to chat with and learn from you. Join me Tuesday for another Brainy episode of the Brainy Business Podcast. It’s going to be a lot of fun. You don’t want to miss it. Until then, thanks again for listening and learning with me and remember to be thoughtful.
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Melina Palmer: For more free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.
